Just to let you all know that I am new here, and I only posted because I am going out of my mind. I've been researching this topic for about 2 weeks now and getting minimal progress.
I've looked at a lot of posts here and this site has helped a lot, but still have a few questions. I am transferring a walkin closet, 5 and a half feet by about 4 feet, into a vocal booth. I want it soundproof for privacy and to be able to play guitar or whatnot when others are sleeping. It's only a second story, and insulation at the moment is at a minimum.
It has carpet inside but that's about it. What I was considering doing was build a room inside of a room. Floating floor, new walls, two doors, etc. But I think the closet is just too small for that. So Instead I am thinking about tearing down the existing drywalls. Add insulation between the studs. Create a staggered stud system. Put fiberglass between the studs. Put a Resilient Channel in there, and some more drywall up. Maybe two layers. And the room will be a little smaller. Get a good door with a seal, but would this be a good way to go or what are your guys comments? I'm just not sure where to start! I truly want to have a STC rating of around 50+. When blaring a guitar in there, or singing at the top of my lungs, I don't want anyone to be able to hear me in the next room. Tell me it's possible! Oh yea, and possibly costs. I'm looking for around $400 - $500 willing to spend. Thanks!
Little help on Closet Vocal Booth
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Thatoneguy
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:24 pm
- Location: Toledo Ohio, USA
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sharward
- Moderator
- Posts: 4281
- Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:08 pm
- Location: Sacramento, Northern California, USA
- Contact:
Getting Things Started
Welcome to the party! If you're "going out of your mind," you'll fit right in around here.Thatoneguy wrote:Just to let you all know that I am new here, and I only posted because I am going out of my mind.
Ah, someone's been doing some reading!. . . I am thinking about tearing down the existing drywalls. Add insulation between the studs. Create a staggered stud system. Put fiberglass between the studs. Put a Resilient Channel in there, and some more drywall up. Maybe two layers. . . .
Double wall is superior to staggered stud, but it does consume footage. Staggered stud is a decent alternative where space is somewhat tight. However, given your closet conversion situation, I'm thinking RC will be your ticket.
I don't believe there's any benefit to doing staggered stud and RC at the same time. Each offers decoupling, so you don't need to decouple twice. In fact, there may be some reasons that "double decoupling" might make things worse and not better than one or the other.
All of this is assuming you're talking about walls. There's still the matter of the ceiling... Or is that where you planned to use RC?
You're off to a pretty good start already, actually. However, there's more that the experts here (of which I only to pretend to be one, and not all that convincingly, I might add) will need from you. Details, details, details about the existing construction.. . . I'm just not sure where to start! I truly want to have a STC rating of around 50+. When blaring a guitar in there, or singing at the top of my lungs, I don't want anyone to be able to hear me in the next room. Tell me it's possible! Oh yea, and possibly costs. I'm looking for around $400 - $500 willing to spend. . .
You mentioned that this closet is on the second floor, but there's no mention yet of what is below and adjacent to this booth-to-be. It's also critical to understand the construction details -- floor joist size and spacing, attic rafter/truss size and spacing, all of that. Drawings and photos help a lot, too, as no doubt you've seen on other posts here.
Bear in mind that STC is a measure that applies to the vocal range, and doesn't represent the full spectrum of music. You mentioned that you'll be playing guitar in there and singing at the top of your lungs... What kind of guitar (acoustic or electric)? That's an important distinction.
Think about these things, do some more research, and then post back with as much detail as you can on these items. Then the brains around here can start gnawing on your info and get you going in the right direction!
Good luck...
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Thatoneguy
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:24 pm
- Location: Toledo Ohio, USA
You mentioned Decoupling. Not sure what that means. Info me!
Honestly, I didn't really plan on doing the ceiling because it leads right to the attic and I thought the walls were probably my shortest link, so therefore would be need to be done. Limited budget and only need soundproofing for privacy for myself mostly. And hopefully so I don't pick up any toilets flushing when I'm recording
I have no idea of the construction details. To follow up on my situation. College student here living at home, using the upstairs turned into my home-recording setup. I'll try to make a crude graphic of what my house (the relevent areas) look like.
Playing guitar yes. (Although the lower frequency's of the guitar, like the bass really, don't need to be soundproof) I don't mind if a little guitar leaks out, especially the bass because that's harder to get rid of. But I'm more concerned with the mids, and higher freq's. Electric guitar, and acoustic. So I'm not concerned with guitar, just vocals.
Let me try to whip up some graphics for you guys, or even some quick pics with my camera phone.
Honestly, I didn't really plan on doing the ceiling because it leads right to the attic and I thought the walls were probably my shortest link, so therefore would be need to be done. Limited budget and only need soundproofing for privacy for myself mostly. And hopefully so I don't pick up any toilets flushing when I'm recording
I have no idea of the construction details. To follow up on my situation. College student here living at home, using the upstairs turned into my home-recording setup. I'll try to make a crude graphic of what my house (the relevent areas) look like.
Playing guitar yes. (Although the lower frequency's of the guitar, like the bass really, don't need to be soundproof) I don't mind if a little guitar leaks out, especially the bass because that's harder to get rid of. But I'm more concerned with the mids, and higher freq's. Electric guitar, and acoustic. So I'm not concerned with guitar, just vocals.
Let me try to whip up some graphics for you guys, or even some quick pics with my camera phone.
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Thatoneguy
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:24 pm
- Location: Toledo Ohio, USA
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knightfly
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Here's the thing about STC, "Guess-TC", etc - unless you've been doing this forever, or get incredibly lucky, no matter how much you try there's a good chance that SOMETHING unforseen will bite you in the ass. All you can really do is be as anal as possible, and "measure 3 times, cut once", etc.
"decoupling" is the act/method of separating one surface from the other on opposing sides of a sound wall, so that the sound which excites vibrations in that side has a hard time sneaking into the other side's surfaces, and so is attenuated in level as much as possible.
Ways of doing this are several, some more effective than others. Staggered stud construction and RC on standard stud frames are nearly identical in results - if constructed PERFECTLY (no little holes, no fasteners in wrong places, good caulking, etc) a 2x4 frame with 1/2" single layer gypsum on one side, RC, two 5/8 gypsum other side, which would have an effective air gap of 4", predicts at STC 53 - Changing framing to 2x6 plates, staggered 2x4 studs widens the air gap to 5.5", and predicts at STC 52, with a bit lower m-a-m resonance due to the wider gap. (Generally, lower resonance is a GOOD thing)
In actual practice, you will be LESS likely to blunder when building a staggered stud wall so it's most likely a tossup. It's also easier to find 2x4's at your local Home Depot or Lowes than it will be to chase down someone who carries the RIGHT type of RC, so that's ANOTHER vote for the staggered studs.
In fact, about the only reason NOT to use that method (in YOUR case, please don't everyone I've recommended using RC get excited here) would be if you absolutely can't STAND the idea of giving up 1-1/2" of floor space on each wall. Also, if your plumbing isn't ALSO "decoupled", as in rubber/plastic hangers, no firm contact with framing) then RC might help "hush the flush", and no I'm NOT apologising for that one; I'm actually kinda PROUD of it
Ceiling - flanking noise. If you have fairly thick insulation in the attic, and it's actually still THERE, it will damp the ceiling somewhat; but be aware that anything getting into the attic will still come through the ceilings in EITHER direction, and not all that quieter than it was in the OTHER room. If the walls don't extend clear to the outer roof (and almost NO homes do this) then you have a flanking path. This will make your STC 52 walls seem like a waste of time unless you consider ALL paths in/out of your closet, including the floor and door.
Door - check out these
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1662
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3293
Basically, a general plan would be to remove the wallboard inside the closet, probably INCLUDING the ceiling wallboard - on the ceiling, you would benefit by use of Resilient Channel (in case RC isn't yet part of your vocabulary :=) - if this is done, it needs to be on the studs and NOT between layers of drywall. If you're going to use RC on the ceiling, then you may want to just do that on all the walls too; this could reduce plumbing noise a bit in the closet.
IF there's carpet, remove it; add a floor layer of something like 3/4" OSB or MDF, then wood or vinyl floor covering. This will help keep the booth from getting entirely dead after you use absorption inside to help the sound.
Screw 2x2's onto the floor and ceiling (you may have to add blocking between the ceiling joists to do this) so your sole plate and cap are effectively 2x6 instead of 2x4. Add studs between each pair of existing studs, but make them flush with the INNER EDGE of your new 2x2, and center them as much as possible on 24" centers.
Install the RC - for MUCH more on this, check out the Complete Section link, gotten to by following the very top announcement in the Construction forum. Do a search on "masking tape", it should bring up a method of keeping track of all first-layer screws -
Install the RC on ceiling, and all walls. Then, each layer of wallboard will need to be mudded and taped - the long edge of wallboard has a taper, so there will be room for a layer of mud (joint compound) and tape, without making a bulge. If you don't FILL this "ditch" with mud before adding the second layer of drywall, it creates a "void" which will cause a resonance in the wall and weaken the TL at that frequency. It will also lessen the MASS in that area of the wall, which also hurts TL.
Put up a layer on the ceiling, then one on the walls, then ceiling, then walls; interlock the edges so each layer comes within 1/8 to 1/4" of the intersecting one, and caulk as you go; if you can't find acoustic caulk, for a small project like this you can use GE Silicon II, which can usually be found for exhorbitant prices at HD or Lowes.
For wall layers, sit each piece on 1/4" spacers while fastening; then, pull the spacers (like small scraps of 1/4" plywood) and caulk. For the ceiling, you'll have to tape the spacers to the studs for the first ceiling layer, then tape them to the first WALL layer for the SECOND ceiling layer. Remember, pull spacers and caulk right after fastening each layer.
Standard spacing for drywall screws is typically 12" - use HALF this many for the first layer, then the FULL amount for the top layer.
Gotta run for now, check out that "don't even" link, read lots, then ask about whatever's not clear yet... Steve
"decoupling" is the act/method of separating one surface from the other on opposing sides of a sound wall, so that the sound which excites vibrations in that side has a hard time sneaking into the other side's surfaces, and so is attenuated in level as much as possible.
Ways of doing this are several, some more effective than others. Staggered stud construction and RC on standard stud frames are nearly identical in results - if constructed PERFECTLY (no little holes, no fasteners in wrong places, good caulking, etc) a 2x4 frame with 1/2" single layer gypsum on one side, RC, two 5/8 gypsum other side, which would have an effective air gap of 4", predicts at STC 53 - Changing framing to 2x6 plates, staggered 2x4 studs widens the air gap to 5.5", and predicts at STC 52, with a bit lower m-a-m resonance due to the wider gap. (Generally, lower resonance is a GOOD thing)
In actual practice, you will be LESS likely to blunder when building a staggered stud wall so it's most likely a tossup. It's also easier to find 2x4's at your local Home Depot or Lowes than it will be to chase down someone who carries the RIGHT type of RC, so that's ANOTHER vote for the staggered studs.
In fact, about the only reason NOT to use that method (in YOUR case, please don't everyone I've recommended using RC get excited here) would be if you absolutely can't STAND the idea of giving up 1-1/2" of floor space on each wall. Also, if your plumbing isn't ALSO "decoupled", as in rubber/plastic hangers, no firm contact with framing) then RC might help "hush the flush", and no I'm NOT apologising for that one; I'm actually kinda PROUD of it
Ceiling - flanking noise. If you have fairly thick insulation in the attic, and it's actually still THERE, it will damp the ceiling somewhat; but be aware that anything getting into the attic will still come through the ceilings in EITHER direction, and not all that quieter than it was in the OTHER room. If the walls don't extend clear to the outer roof (and almost NO homes do this) then you have a flanking path. This will make your STC 52 walls seem like a waste of time unless you consider ALL paths in/out of your closet, including the floor and door.
Door - check out these
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1662
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3293
Basically, a general plan would be to remove the wallboard inside the closet, probably INCLUDING the ceiling wallboard - on the ceiling, you would benefit by use of Resilient Channel (in case RC isn't yet part of your vocabulary :=) - if this is done, it needs to be on the studs and NOT between layers of drywall. If you're going to use RC on the ceiling, then you may want to just do that on all the walls too; this could reduce plumbing noise a bit in the closet.
IF there's carpet, remove it; add a floor layer of something like 3/4" OSB or MDF, then wood or vinyl floor covering. This will help keep the booth from getting entirely dead after you use absorption inside to help the sound.
Screw 2x2's onto the floor and ceiling (you may have to add blocking between the ceiling joists to do this) so your sole plate and cap are effectively 2x6 instead of 2x4. Add studs between each pair of existing studs, but make them flush with the INNER EDGE of your new 2x2, and center them as much as possible on 24" centers.
Install the RC - for MUCH more on this, check out the Complete Section link, gotten to by following the very top announcement in the Construction forum. Do a search on "masking tape", it should bring up a method of keeping track of all first-layer screws -
Install the RC on ceiling, and all walls. Then, each layer of wallboard will need to be mudded and taped - the long edge of wallboard has a taper, so there will be room for a layer of mud (joint compound) and tape, without making a bulge. If you don't FILL this "ditch" with mud before adding the second layer of drywall, it creates a "void" which will cause a resonance in the wall and weaken the TL at that frequency. It will also lessen the MASS in that area of the wall, which also hurts TL.
Put up a layer on the ceiling, then one on the walls, then ceiling, then walls; interlock the edges so each layer comes within 1/8 to 1/4" of the intersecting one, and caulk as you go; if you can't find acoustic caulk, for a small project like this you can use GE Silicon II, which can usually be found for exhorbitant prices at HD or Lowes.
For wall layers, sit each piece on 1/4" spacers while fastening; then, pull the spacers (like small scraps of 1/4" plywood) and caulk. For the ceiling, you'll have to tape the spacers to the studs for the first ceiling layer, then tape them to the first WALL layer for the SECOND ceiling layer. Remember, pull spacers and caulk right after fastening each layer.
Standard spacing for drywall screws is typically 12" - use HALF this many for the first layer, then the FULL amount for the top layer.
Gotta run for now, check out that "don't even" link, read lots, then ask about whatever's not clear yet... Steve
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Thatoneguy
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:24 pm
- Location: Toledo Ohio, USA
I just thought of I'll need a way to run wires in and out of the booth. A good idea that I thought of that I think might be the best way, but the hardest way, would be to create a panel on each side of the wall.
So I can plug in an XLR cable and a TRS cable into the wall, go into the booth, and plug the mic into the inside wall.with the corresponding XLR plug, and plug the headphones into the TRS jack.
This would mean, when tearing down the existing drywall on the inside, create a hole on the outside wall, putting in a panel, and putting in a plug, wiring it a panel and plug on the opposite hole in the wall.
Problem here is I have no idea how to wire a balanced plug! Although there is a lot of info I've been digging up on this subject. How hard is it for a non-electrician, standard guy to wire this in? Is this really the only option I have?
What about instead of wiring two plugs together, make a panel, and slip an already made cable into the two cables. A Female to Female XLR cable, and Female to Female TRS cable into each panel. Not sure how well it would stay. . . I would prefer wiring it myself *IF* it's not too difficult, so I know it's done right and can repair it if need be. Just have totally NO idea how to wire a cable or two panels together.
What about sound control? How much sound loss am I talking here? Should I just caulk all around the (inside of the wall) of the panel?
To sum-up.
1) How hard is it to wire two panels together of BALANCED TRS and XLR plugs?
2) What other options do I have?
3) Would it be simplier to create a panel, then just glue in a premade female to female cable in a hole?
4) How much sound loss am I looking at for a panel on inside and outside of the wall, and how to prevent it?
So I can plug in an XLR cable and a TRS cable into the wall, go into the booth, and plug the mic into the inside wall.with the corresponding XLR plug, and plug the headphones into the TRS jack.
This would mean, when tearing down the existing drywall on the inside, create a hole on the outside wall, putting in a panel, and putting in a plug, wiring it a panel and plug on the opposite hole in the wall.
Problem here is I have no idea how to wire a balanced plug! Although there is a lot of info I've been digging up on this subject. How hard is it for a non-electrician, standard guy to wire this in? Is this really the only option I have?
What about instead of wiring two plugs together, make a panel, and slip an already made cable into the two cables. A Female to Female XLR cable, and Female to Female TRS cable into each panel. Not sure how well it would stay. . . I would prefer wiring it myself *IF* it's not too difficult, so I know it's done right and can repair it if need be. Just have totally NO idea how to wire a cable or two panels together.
What about sound control? How much sound loss am I talking here? Should I just caulk all around the (inside of the wall) of the panel?
To sum-up.
1) How hard is it to wire two panels together of BALANCED TRS and XLR plugs?
2) What other options do I have?
3) Would it be simplier to create a panel, then just glue in a premade female to female cable in a hole?
4) How much sound loss am I looking at for a panel on inside and outside of the wall, and how to prevent it?
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John Shryock
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:47 am
- Location: Maryland, USA
- Contact:
Hey,
I'm not an expert, but I do have some experience with these last few questions -
1) How hard is it to wire two panels together of BALANCED TRS and XLR plugs?
Not too hard, just good use of a soldering gun and knowing what to solder for the tips. You can find the info on the internet, just do some searches for making cables. If you can't find anything, post back and I can find some for you.
2) What other options do I have?
http://www.markertek.com/p/fullpage.php?page=079
Definitely contact markertek, take a look at that page. They have a ton of wall plate options, and you can customize one and have them build it, solder it up for you. You could get an XLR and a TRS on one, and it'd be pretty cheap (if you don't want to learn about how to make it, it'd be easier just to buy it. they also sell blank plates).
3) Would it be simplier to create a panel, then just glue in a premade female to female cable in a hole?
I think that might be simpler, but remember this - for 1/4", you need female to female, but for XLR, you need female to male (assuming you are using it for a microphone to plug into a preamp). you're essentially plugging a microphone cable into a microphone cable - daisy-chaining them together - which isn't a problem for a short distance, plus it's all balanced anyways.
In your post you mentioned female to female XLR, and that probably wouldn't work for what you're trying to do. (unless I'm wrong about your intent)
4) How much sound loss am I looking at for a panel on inside and outside of the wall, and how to prevent it?
That i'm not sure of - hopefully someone else can chime in on this.
Good luck, I am starting to build a vocal booth as well over the next week and a half!
- John
I'm not an expert, but I do have some experience with these last few questions -
1) How hard is it to wire two panels together of BALANCED TRS and XLR plugs?
Not too hard, just good use of a soldering gun and knowing what to solder for the tips. You can find the info on the internet, just do some searches for making cables. If you can't find anything, post back and I can find some for you.
2) What other options do I have?
http://www.markertek.com/p/fullpage.php?page=079
Definitely contact markertek, take a look at that page. They have a ton of wall plate options, and you can customize one and have them build it, solder it up for you. You could get an XLR and a TRS on one, and it'd be pretty cheap (if you don't want to learn about how to make it, it'd be easier just to buy it. they also sell blank plates).
3) Would it be simplier to create a panel, then just glue in a premade female to female cable in a hole?
I think that might be simpler, but remember this - for 1/4", you need female to female, but for XLR, you need female to male (assuming you are using it for a microphone to plug into a preamp). you're essentially plugging a microphone cable into a microphone cable - daisy-chaining them together - which isn't a problem for a short distance, plus it's all balanced anyways.
In your post you mentioned female to female XLR, and that probably wouldn't work for what you're trying to do. (unless I'm wrong about your intent)
4) How much sound loss am I looking at for a panel on inside and outside of the wall, and how to prevent it?
That i'm not sure of - hopefully someone else can chime in on this.
Good luck, I am starting to build a vocal booth as well over the next week and a half!
- John
Thanks to everyone for supporting and contributing to online audio forums.
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
For wall panels, all the above plus OFFSET the panels - at least one stud cavity offset, with insulation fill, will cut down the losses in isolation considerably.
Wiring -
http://www.rane.com/note110.html
http://www.tweakheadz.com/all_about_cables.htm
HTH... Steve
Wiring -
http://www.rane.com/note110.html
http://www.tweakheadz.com/all_about_cables.htm
HTH... Steve
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Thatoneguy
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:24 pm
- Location: Toledo Ohio, USA
I'm cleaning out the closet all today, so I just want some clarification on a few things while I'm getting started. By the way this forum has been EXTREMELY helpful.
So, empty closet. Tear down all the walls down to the studs, including the ceiling. (I've never done this before, having someone help, although I'd still like to know so I don't frick anything up
Remove carpet. Lay down RC on all four walls, ceiling and floor. Throw down some MDF on the floor, then cover with wood/vinyl.
This is the fuzzy part.
You also said something earlier about "fasteners in the wrong places" what would be a wrong place for a fastener, and what would be the correct place. Also if you have any info on basic wall construction so I can get this terms down a little better, that'd help greatly as well.
So, empty closet. Tear down all the walls down to the studs, including the ceiling. (I've never done this before, having someone help, although I'd still like to know so I don't frick anything up
Remove carpet. Lay down RC on all four walls, ceiling and floor. Throw down some MDF on the floor, then cover with wood/vinyl.
This is the fuzzy part.
Screw the 2x2's where exactly? OVER the mdf and vinyl? Are you sure to use screws? Wouldn't that cause resonates. And don't mind a noob here, but need to ask these questions. Sole plate? Cap? Not sure what you mean flush with the inner edge of the new 2x2 since I'm not sure where the 2x2's would go. I think I could benefit from a picture of how this is suppose to look before, during and after. (I'll post pictures as I'm doing this as well, for future closet-modifications)Screw 2x2's onto the floor and ceiling (you may have to add blocking between the ceiling joists to do this) so your sole plate and cap are effectively 2x6 instead of 2x4. Add studs between each pair of existing studs, but make them flush with the INNER EDGE of your new 2x2, and center them as much as possible on 24" centers.
Layer of gypsum, right? 1/8 to 1/4" of the intersecting one. A crude pic would clear that up.Put up a layer on the ceiling, then one on the walls, then ceiling, then walls; interlock the edges so each layer comes within 1/8 to 1/4" of the intersecting one, and caulk as you go
You also said something earlier about "fasteners in the wrong places" what would be a wrong place for a fastener, and what would be the correct place. Also if you have any info on basic wall construction so I can get this terms down a little better, that'd help greatly as well.
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sharward
- Moderator
- Posts: 4281
- Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:08 pm
- Location: Sacramento, Northern California, USA
- Contact:
My illustration may help you understand this concept. Bear in mind that I'm going to be using three layers, but you can get the idea...Thatoneguy wrote:Layer of gypsum, right? 1/8 to 1/4" of the intersecting one. A crude pic would clear that up.
There are other illustrations on the forum (where, I'm not certain) that show the interleaving panels in more detail.
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Sorry I got ahead of you, there are a LOT of terms in this biz and only some of them make any sense - here's a good start on understanding some terms along with pix; -
http://www.homestore.com/homegarden/hom ... =homestore
First click on this
http://www.homestore.com/HomeGarden/Hom ... gWalls.asp
(that's the one titled "Framing Walls" - check the picture just below where it says,"Project Basics" - note where it shows Top plate and Bottom Plate? These will need to be extended after you remove the drywall from your studs, this is where the 2x2's get placed because it's easier than trying to remove those plates from under and on top of your existing studs -
I've done a basic sketch to show what will be changed to incorporate staggered stud framing in an existing place - if you're totally new at this, expect it to take several posts/sketches/explanations; it's all part of the learning curve.
A really good investment here would be to stop at Home Depot's book shelf and buy one of their books on home remodeling; Home Improvement 1-2-3 would be a good choice, these series have good pix and explanations. The $20 will be very well spent, believe me.
Here's the drawing; I know there will be more questions, bring 'em on... Steve
http://www.homestore.com/homegarden/hom ... =homestore
First click on this
http://www.homestore.com/HomeGarden/Hom ... gWalls.asp
(that's the one titled "Framing Walls" - check the picture just below where it says,"Project Basics" - note where it shows Top plate and Bottom Plate? These will need to be extended after you remove the drywall from your studs, this is where the 2x2's get placed because it's easier than trying to remove those plates from under and on top of your existing studs -
I've done a basic sketch to show what will be changed to incorporate staggered stud framing in an existing place - if you're totally new at this, expect it to take several posts/sketches/explanations; it's all part of the learning curve.
A really good investment here would be to stop at Home Depot's book shelf and buy one of their books on home remodeling; Home Improvement 1-2-3 would be a good choice, these series have good pix and explanations. The $20 will be very well spent, believe me.
Here's the drawing; I know there will be more questions, bring 'em on... Steve
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Thatoneguy
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:24 pm
- Location: Toledo Ohio, USA
What type of actual square inches am I looking at losing if I use a leaf air leaf method. The last option, with the STC of 63 is obviously the best. But what are the measurements for a basic wall (the first option with an STC of 33) and the final wall with the 63 STC. I'm going to measure out the closet and decide or not if I can afford to lose that much room.
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Considering your ceiling (and likely floor) limitations, giving up the floor space for ANY double framed wall build would be a waste of space, since the final result will be controlled by the weakest link - so, from a practical standpoint, using either Resilient Channel on the inside of all existing framing and putting two layers of drywall on that, or building out as I drew and putting two layers of drywall up, would be the two best options for you.
What's not shown on that example are double layers on single studs, or anything with resilient mounts - if there are 2x4 studs in place and a layer of 1/2" drywall on the outside of the closet and you just add two layers of 5/8 drywall on the inside, the walls would be roughly STC 45; that's already as good or better than your ceiling is likely to be, even with double drywall on RC, although it's probably borderline.
If you used staggered studs your air gap would increase from 3.5" to 5.5", and with double 5/8 on the inside that would calculate to about STC 51:
go back to the 2x4 studs, but hang those 2 layers of 5/8 on RC, the STC would be about 52.
Unless you have a way to make the outside drywall on that closet one continuous envelope that wraps around floor, walls and ceiling unbroken, and double that mass, any of the above-mentioned wall constructions will equal or exceed your ceiling and/or floor, so more would be wasted... Steve
BTW, those walls in the drawing you posted have the inner edges of the two frames spaced at approx. 1", which would make the total wall thickness about 10 to 10.5", as opposed to a standard stud wall with 1/2" drywall at total thickness of 4.5". - so both sides considered, you would lose about a foot in each direction (and still need to do 'way more to your ceiling and floor)
What's not shown on that example are double layers on single studs, or anything with resilient mounts - if there are 2x4 studs in place and a layer of 1/2" drywall on the outside of the closet and you just add two layers of 5/8 drywall on the inside, the walls would be roughly STC 45; that's already as good or better than your ceiling is likely to be, even with double drywall on RC, although it's probably borderline.
If you used staggered studs your air gap would increase from 3.5" to 5.5", and with double 5/8 on the inside that would calculate to about STC 51:
go back to the 2x4 studs, but hang those 2 layers of 5/8 on RC, the STC would be about 52.
Unless you have a way to make the outside drywall on that closet one continuous envelope that wraps around floor, walls and ceiling unbroken, and double that mass, any of the above-mentioned wall constructions will equal or exceed your ceiling and/or floor, so more would be wasted... Steve
BTW, those walls in the drawing you posted have the inner edges of the two frames spaced at approx. 1", which would make the total wall thickness about 10 to 10.5", as opposed to a standard stud wall with 1/2" drywall at total thickness of 4.5". - so both sides considered, you would lose about a foot in each direction (and still need to do 'way more to your ceiling and floor)
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Thatoneguy
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:24 pm
- Location: Toledo Ohio, USA
is there anything more I can do with the ceiling and floor?
Floor you mentioned taking the carpet out, throwing down a layer of MDF or OSB and then some vinyl. How about RC? Anything else for the floor?
The ceiling you said to tear the wallboard down, put up RC and two layers of wallboard back up. Anything else I can do with that?
Floor you mentioned taking the carpet out, throwing down a layer of MDF or OSB and then some vinyl. How about RC? Anything else for the floor?
The ceiling you said to tear the wallboard down, put up RC and two layers of wallboard back up. Anything else I can do with that?