Hey guys,
Excellent forum. Thank you for putting this all together for us.
o.k. here it is.
I recentely bought a building, approx 29.5'x29.5'x9' to build a studio.
The first time I was in the building, I noticed how thick the walls were. So, yesterday I got in there and took down one of the pieces of sheet rock to see excactely what was going on.
Here's the scoup. It looks like around the perimeter it is 2 coarses high of 8" cynderblock. Then on that oddly enough they built a double wall. The outside wall is bolted directly to the cynderblock. The inside wall however is also atop the cynderblocks but has what looks like rubber motor mounts sandwiched between the cynderblock and the 2x4 wall.
From the outside in this is what it is(on top of the 2 coarses of 8" cynderblock): vinyl siding, 1/2" plywood(no foam between just plastic moisture barrier),2x4 studs filled with r13 pink insulation,1" between 2x4 studs on motor mounts filled with more r13 and 1 layer of 1/2" sheetrock.
I was planning on building seperate rooms inside(not touching the 2 outer walls) for voacal booth, control room and drum room but was reading the posts about multiple leafs and am now totally confused as what to do.
I guess my question is: Are the walls that are allready there a good place to start or are they going to cause more problems with multiple leafs when I build the rooms inside?
I am up for anything short of tearing the whole building down and starting over.
Any help would be greately appreciated.
thank you
Multiple leaf problems??
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Wet Dog
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: east coast, usa
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Wet Dog
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: east coast, usa
Just thought I'd add this.
I took this picture of what I was talking about with the motor mounts.
from bottom of picture up:
8" cynderblock, 2x8 sill plate, some kind of rubber(motor mount), inside 2x4 wall.
The rubber is spaced approx. every other stud(32") with one screw through bottom of wall through rubber and into the 2x8 sill plate. Same with the top of wall but screwed into the ceiling joists.
Again, thank you and any help would be much appreciated.
I took this picture of what I was talking about with the motor mounts.
from bottom of picture up:
8" cynderblock, 2x8 sill plate, some kind of rubber(motor mount), inside 2x4 wall.
The rubber is spaced approx. every other stud(32") with one screw through bottom of wall through rubber and into the 2x8 sill plate. Same with the top of wall but screwed into the ceiling joists.
Again, thank you and any help would be much appreciated.
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cadesignr
- Senior Member
- Posts: 566
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:25 pm
- Location: Oregon USA
Hello wetdog.....hmmmm 
what ever turns you on....hahaha!(just kiddin with ya!)
If I have this correct, the wall on "motor mounts"(resiliant decoupling...or some kind of rubber pad it looks like) is seperated by 1" from the outer wall, is this correct? No SHEITHING of anykind seperates the two, right?
This IS unusual. Must have been built to isolate sound for some reason. I can't think of any other reason for building it that way. Anyway, so you have this building, with COMPLETE perimeter walls built like this, correct? And the interior face of the double wall is sheithed in 1/2" drywall, correct?Does this sheetrock extend below the plates, over the concrete block?
Ok, the simple answer is REMOVE the 1/2" sheetrock from the inner wall WHERE you are building an adjacent NEW wall. Ignor the studwall on rubber. It becomes nothing but a structure to hold the insulation in place. Actually, this is kind of good, as it increases your airgap depth. However, there are other criteria to look at before starting construction. Like, the exterior wall. How much isolation are you looking for. With only 1/2" ply, and vinyl siding, my guess is you should line these cavities with 2 layers of gyp bd,(to the back of the ply) and caulk, to give more mass to the exterior wall, but that still depends on your needs and budget.
As you stated, you were going to build double wall partitions to seperate spaces into typical studio rooms. However, exactly what do you mean by this? Were you going to build INTIRE decoupled rooms within this space?
By decoupled, I mean......FLOATED FLOORS with partitions built upon them, and some sort of ceiling either suspended within these walls or structurally supported by the walls? OR....were you simply going to build walls and thats it? The answer will determine MANY MANY THINGS
It MIGHT be possible to USE this wall as part of the DOUBLE wall scenario,(under certain conditions)although, you would loose depth, and tieing into interior partitions might be even more difficult than it is worth to seperate the plates at interior double wall partitions that die into it perpendicularly. It would also depend on other things, which a thorough examination of the structure as a whole will tell you. But again, this depends on your ENTIRE plan and budget. And actually, your construction intent almost DEMANDS looking at this as an alternative, as it may be rediculous to build another wall, IF your ceiling is Acoustical Tile and you are NOT going to change it. Make sense?
For instance. How does this existing INTERIOR wall, tie in to the ceiling? If it were isolated from the footing(foundation blocks), my guess is, it is possibly isolated from the ceiling joists also. I would look at this too. BTW, what is the ceiling finish material and how high is it from the existing floor? Any electrical conduits running THOUGH the studs or PIPES or anything that can provide flanking paths? How about existing HVAC? What does that consist of? And the roof. It has to be considered in this scenario also, at least to the point of knowing what you are doing in the airgap that
exists between it, and the existing ceiling. Roofs, if new ceilings are put in below the existing ceiling, become a THIRD leaf, and must be vented, although attic space usually is. It is all these kinds of things, that DEPEND on your EXACT intentions when it comes to the extent of
CONSTRUCTION, and how extensive your isolation goals are.
So tell us everything you can about your plan as that is the best way to insure people give you the best solutions for your particular project.
I know Steve is overwhelmed right now , so I try to prompt people to give him as much information as possible up front, so his time is put to best use, instead of HIM haveing to ask you. BTW, Here is my disclaimer.
I am NO expert on this stuff.
. Just one of the gang trying to help Steve out. He is the answerman. I'm just sticking my neck out.
fitZ
what ever turns you on....hahaha!(just kiddin with ya!)If I have this correct, the wall on "motor mounts"(resiliant decoupling...or some kind of rubber pad it looks like) is seperated by 1" from the outer wall, is this correct? No SHEITHING of anykind seperates the two, right?
This IS unusual. Must have been built to isolate sound for some reason. I can't think of any other reason for building it that way. Anyway, so you have this building, with COMPLETE perimeter walls built like this, correct? And the interior face of the double wall is sheithed in 1/2" drywall, correct?Does this sheetrock extend below the plates, over the concrete block?
Ok, the simple answer is REMOVE the 1/2" sheetrock from the inner wall WHERE you are building an adjacent NEW wall. Ignor the studwall on rubber. It becomes nothing but a structure to hold the insulation in place. Actually, this is kind of good, as it increases your airgap depth. However, there are other criteria to look at before starting construction. Like, the exterior wall. How much isolation are you looking for. With only 1/2" ply, and vinyl siding, my guess is you should line these cavities with 2 layers of gyp bd,(to the back of the ply) and caulk, to give more mass to the exterior wall, but that still depends on your needs and budget.
As you stated, you were going to build double wall partitions to seperate spaces into typical studio rooms. However, exactly what do you mean by this? Were you going to build INTIRE decoupled rooms within this space?
By decoupled, I mean......FLOATED FLOORS with partitions built upon them, and some sort of ceiling either suspended within these walls or structurally supported by the walls? OR....were you simply going to build walls and thats it? The answer will determine MANY MANY THINGS
It MIGHT be possible to USE this wall as part of the DOUBLE wall scenario,(under certain conditions)although, you would loose depth, and tieing into interior partitions might be even more difficult than it is worth to seperate the plates at interior double wall partitions that die into it perpendicularly. It would also depend on other things, which a thorough examination of the structure as a whole will tell you. But again, this depends on your ENTIRE plan and budget. And actually, your construction intent almost DEMANDS looking at this as an alternative, as it may be rediculous to build another wall, IF your ceiling is Acoustical Tile and you are NOT going to change it. Make sense?
For instance. How does this existing INTERIOR wall, tie in to the ceiling? If it were isolated from the footing(foundation blocks), my guess is, it is possibly isolated from the ceiling joists also. I would look at this too. BTW, what is the ceiling finish material and how high is it from the existing floor? Any electrical conduits running THOUGH the studs or PIPES or anything that can provide flanking paths? How about existing HVAC? What does that consist of? And the roof. It has to be considered in this scenario also, at least to the point of knowing what you are doing in the airgap that
exists between it, and the existing ceiling. Roofs, if new ceilings are put in below the existing ceiling, become a THIRD leaf, and must be vented, although attic space usually is. It is all these kinds of things, that DEPEND on your EXACT intentions when it comes to the extent of
CONSTRUCTION, and how extensive your isolation goals are.
So tell us everything you can about your plan as that is the best way to insure people give you the best solutions for your particular project.
I know Steve is overwhelmed right now , so I try to prompt people to give him as much information as possible up front, so his time is put to best use, instead of HIM haveing to ask you. BTW, Here is my disclaimer.
I am NO expert on this stuff.
. Just one of the gang trying to help Steve out. He is the answerman. I'm just sticking my neck out.
fitZ
alright, breaks over , back on your heads......
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Wet Dog
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: east coast, usa
Hey cadesignr,
Thanks for the reply. Almost thought I wouldn't get one considering the circumstances.
It looks like the previous owners started to build something and either lost interest or ran out of money, who knows. The realtor did say something about a machine shop(that's why I assumed it was motor mounts, looks like the same material)
To your 1st paragragh:Yes. 1" between studs(8"air correct?) No other sheithing and the drywall is glued to the cynderblocks at the bottom.
As the building stands now, it has these walls around the entire perimeter(rubber under and over the inner walls), the drywall is unfinished, and it has no ceiling just the joists(2x6) and air to the roof (5/12 pitch, 6' at peak).
concrete floors and 9'4" height to the joists.
No hvac or duct work.
It had a few outlets along the ceiling but I took them down so I could eventually run the electric under a floating floor.
The nearest neighbor is about 100' away across the street. I would like to have enough isolation to be able to play drums late at night if possible.
What I was thinking(ouch that hurts) was to build decoupled rooms inside this 29.5'x29.5'x9.4' space( control room, vocal booth, drum room and hope to have some space left for the live room).
By that I mean: build doubled walls(2x4/1" space/2x4) for each room and decouple them from the floor and ceiling. Then build floating floors in each room. Then suspend a ceiling in each room. If there is room left for the live room, that would also be floated floors and suspended ceilings totally independent of the other rooms. In other words I would like not to have any room fastened to another.
I think that's it.
oh-yea. When it comes time for it, I would like to have surface mounted outlets and soffit lighting. If that matters now.
So, to answer the question of what kind of isolation I would like and my budget: I have 15k US and if there is no other way I can come up with another 5k. I guess that will determine what kind of isolation I have whether I like it or not. My friends and I are all in the construction business in one way or another so all the work will be done ourselves giving me the money I have for just materials.
I hope that made things alittle more clear.
Thank you so much for your reply. It obviously took a chunck of your day and I do appreciate it.
Thanks for the reply. Almost thought I wouldn't get one considering the circumstances.
It looks like the previous owners started to build something and either lost interest or ran out of money, who knows. The realtor did say something about a machine shop(that's why I assumed it was motor mounts, looks like the same material)
To your 1st paragragh:Yes. 1" between studs(8"air correct?) No other sheithing and the drywall is glued to the cynderblocks at the bottom.
As the building stands now, it has these walls around the entire perimeter(rubber under and over the inner walls), the drywall is unfinished, and it has no ceiling just the joists(2x6) and air to the roof (5/12 pitch, 6' at peak).
concrete floors and 9'4" height to the joists.
No hvac or duct work.
It had a few outlets along the ceiling but I took them down so I could eventually run the electric under a floating floor.
The nearest neighbor is about 100' away across the street. I would like to have enough isolation to be able to play drums late at night if possible.
What I was thinking(ouch that hurts) was to build decoupled rooms inside this 29.5'x29.5'x9.4' space( control room, vocal booth, drum room and hope to have some space left for the live room).
By that I mean: build doubled walls(2x4/1" space/2x4) for each room and decouple them from the floor and ceiling. Then build floating floors in each room. Then suspend a ceiling in each room. If there is room left for the live room, that would also be floated floors and suspended ceilings totally independent of the other rooms. In other words I would like not to have any room fastened to another.
I think that's it.
oh-yea. When it comes time for it, I would like to have surface mounted outlets and soffit lighting. If that matters now.
So, to answer the question of what kind of isolation I would like and my budget: I have 15k US and if there is no other way I can come up with another 5k. I guess that will determine what kind of isolation I have whether I like it or not. My friends and I are all in the construction business in one way or another so all the work will be done ourselves giving me the money I have for just materials.
I hope that made things alittle more clear.
Thank you so much for your reply. It obviously took a chunck of your day and I do appreciate it.
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cadesignr
- Senior Member
- Posts: 566
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:25 pm
- Location: Oregon USA
Hey wetdog, no prob. As long as Steve don't mind me trying to help. I do have brain farts once in a while thoughHey cadesignr,
Thanks for the reply. Almost thought I wouldn't get one considering the circumstances.
So I'll throw some stuff at ya but Steve may have to "undo" something I've said. Hahahahaha!Ha! I was thinking that EXACT scenario. I'll be a monkeys.......er..nevermindThe realtor did say something about a machine shop
Man, what a PERFECT blank palette. (EXCEPT for the vinyl sidingit has these walls around the entire perimeter(rubber under and over the inner walls), the drywall is unfinished, and it has no ceiling just the joists(2x6) and air to the roof (5/12 pitch, 6' at peak).
concrete floors and 9'4" height to the joists.
)Ok, more questions.
#1 The rubber isolators at top. Is this a similar situation as below, where you have ONE plate on the cinderblock, then rubber, then ANOTHER second plate touching or fastened to the joists?
#2 How is this wall held in place, and can you open the corners for a peak?
#3 Can you post a existing plan of your building, showing windows, doors, adjacent street, interior dimensions to the nearest 1/4"(sheetrock to sheetrock) and another, showing your new plan of the spaces, and thier dimensions.(This will give me the information to post a section of each type wall detail.)BTW, I am a pro Autocad detailer, but my computer is down for a few days. I am using my wifes right now.
#4 What are you planning on for HVAC? This may take a good chunk of your budget, but the rest is actually fairly inexpensive IF you are doing the labor. Doors, seals thresholds, latchsets, electrical, gypboard, nominal timber, tape, mud, caulk nails screws.........er what else? Small stuff compared to the HVAC EXCEPT permits See below..
#5 Is this going to be a working studio for hire, or your own use only?
Reason I ask, is I assume this is a commercial building(since it had a machine shop) so, you are getting permits I assume? That means plan submittals to BID. This also means things have to meet commercial codes, REGARDLESS if it is a business because of commercial zoning. I could be wrong, but in my county, if it is in a commercial building, you HAVE to meet the commercial codes, which are more stringent than typical residential. Have you considered hiring a pro designer or architect, as getting a Studio through the permit process is not your average house. My own experience with commercial submittals tells me you could waste a lot of time unless you are familiar with the local codes. Building Class, Zoning, egress, occupancy loads, FIRE sprinkleing,
parking and other things of that nature could stop you dead in your tracks for a while, unless prepared with knowledge and plans that are in compliance. Even Title 24 turned into a nightmare for us(handicap codes) which were MANDATORY in my county. Didn't matter what kind of business, only the occupancy load and business TYPE(educational) determined bathroom facility extent, and cost $10k to bring up to code.(New plumbing etc)I'm not saying this to scare you, only prepare you for possible compliance conflicts.#6 Roof, what is it made of? You said peak. This is a gabled roof, and exterior walls with vinyl siding........in a commercial building
?Hmmmmm. #7 Environmental noise. ANY? Trains, busses, trucks, aircraft, guns
machinery ....anything?# Electrical..what is existing as far as a supply panel(are you STAR grounding?), and who is doing the electrical once your plan is approved by BID? Isolated grounds and Studio electrical are Steves special area of expertise. I keep my mouth shut.
Well, that should keep you busy for a while
Once you answer these, then people will have more to work with as far as correct solutions. One thing though.
IF, you are building floating floors for each room, you do NOT have to float the walls. They are built on TOP of the floating floor, thereby floating the entire room, except for ceiling, and this acts as one system. However, there are many issues to address, like WEIGHT. Calculation of occupancy, the construction mass, equipment, and type/depth of floor will determine the type/spacing of resiliant pads/springs . BTW, what type of floating floor are you talking about? Concrete or lumber framed. Other things too, such as types of finish flooring, which will determine threshold types, and sub floor heights. Remember, when you float a room, the floor height raises higher than the existing. That means somewhere along the line, either you step up, or gradually as in a ramp. Some studios are designed so the floating floors are at the same height as the entrance point of the building, thereby negating any step. This is done via a lower support slab than the surrounding rooms.By that I mean: build doubled walls(2x4/1" space/2x4) for each room and decouple them from the floor and ceiling. Then build floating floors in each room. Then suspend a ceiling in each room. If there is room left for the live room, that would also be floated floors and suspended ceilings totally independent of the other rooms. In other words I would like not to have any room fastened to another.
This also means addressing double doors, jambs, and other details such as flanking paths between walls at the ceiling junctures etc. Another point of interest. HVAC location and isolation , ducting etc.........ooops. Thats enough.
Ok, for now, I won't go any further till we know some of this. Ok? Have a good day
fitZ
alright, breaks over , back on your heads......
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
You guys seem to be doin' OK without me, cool; just a couple of comments then I gotta run for now;
first, the rubber under/over the wall frames - it doesn't exist. I know you see it, but you're NOT HEARING it; Acoustically, as soon as you (they) passed a solid fastener THROUGH the rubber between the wall frame and the blocks, etc, the rubber was GONE as far as acoustics is concerned; just plain "shorted out", "blotto", ad nauseum...
Second, be sure to read thru the "complete section" thread in the REFERENCE area at the top of this forum; you sound like you're headed for "triple leaf" country, and that's bad... (check out those links, I'll check back later.
Aaron's the man for wiring, etc, has his own forum here now; please post any wiring/power questions there (if you forget I'll move them) - I help out from time to time, when I can... Steve
first, the rubber under/over the wall frames - it doesn't exist. I know you see it, but you're NOT HEARING it; Acoustically, as soon as you (they) passed a solid fastener THROUGH the rubber between the wall frame and the blocks, etc, the rubber was GONE as far as acoustics is concerned; just plain "shorted out", "blotto", ad nauseum...
Second, be sure to read thru the "complete section" thread in the REFERENCE area at the top of this forum; you sound like you're headed for "triple leaf" country, and that's bad... (check out those links, I'll check back later.
Aaron's the man for wiring, etc, has his own forum here now; please post any wiring/power questions there (if you forget I'll move them) - I help out from time to time, when I can... Steve
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Wet Dog
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: east coast, usa
Hey guys,
Answers:
#1:At the bottom there is 1 2x8 sill plate that both the walls are attached to. At the top, the joists are resting(and attached) on the outer walls. The inner wall comes up to the joists and is attached with a screw through each rubber piece(every 32").
#2:The inner wall is ONLY fastened by the screws through the rubber on top and bottom which knightfly just said is bad. Is it possible to have an inner wall on top of the cynder blocks or am I going to have to take them down?
#3: still working on the plans.
#4:I allready have an oil furnace I was going to use and run the ductwork above the ceiling. Then when summer rolls around I was going to slip in a cooling coil on the air handler. The exaust will go through a small chimney in the back of the studio(same room as furnace but not built yet) and then pipe the air from the attic space as the fresh air intake.
#5: This is going to be for my friends and I. If there happens to be someone we like that wants to record here than hey, the more the marrier.
It isn't a commercial building though. It's more like a converted 2 car garage. You'd be suprised at all the "backyard businesses" in this area.
#6: the roof is 2x6,plywood,shingles.
#7:No environmental noise. To the north is the nearest neighbor(100' or so). There is a road seperating us but maybe 1 car every 20 minutes. To the east is a large stream(100' or so and then about 500 yards to the nearest neighbor in that direction). To the south is forest and fields( I'd say at least 1/2 mile to nearest neighbor). To the west is the house(45' but I don't care if I make too much noice to sleep).
#8:There is an excitisting 40 amp service which is a sub panel off of the 200 amp service in the house. I was planning on turning the 40 amp into a 100 amp. Obviously I will need to run heavier wire(2 gauge). My father and I will be doing the electric(we've built 3 of the homes we've lived in).
As far as permits and things go, My friend is a friend of the building inspector. The inspector basically said" The original building has a build permit and the electric has allready been approved. What we do inside to "remodel" is up to us as long as we aren't building a bathroom(next year) or changing the structural walls that are there allready. I don't know what else to say about that. We'll get the electric inspected becuase we're changing 40 amp to 100 amp but that isn't even necessary.
As far as the floors go, I was planning on floating the entire floor in different sections so there won't be a height differance from room to room. I was thinking something along the lines of 2x3 on top of rubber squares then filled with sand then plywood then laminate flooring with area rugs.
Back to the inner walls that are allready there. Could you point me to a link or something that could tell me how to properly fasten them if the way they are won't work somehow. I've gone through so many allready and see the drawings for them but i can't find how they are actually fastened. Are they just wedged in tight? Right now I'm still looking at this as I would building a home but I know that isn't the way I should be looking at it.
I appologize for all the ignorance.
Thank you
Answers:
#1:At the bottom there is 1 2x8 sill plate that both the walls are attached to. At the top, the joists are resting(and attached) on the outer walls. The inner wall comes up to the joists and is attached with a screw through each rubber piece(every 32").
#2:The inner wall is ONLY fastened by the screws through the rubber on top and bottom which knightfly just said is bad. Is it possible to have an inner wall on top of the cynder blocks or am I going to have to take them down?
#3: still working on the plans.
#4:I allready have an oil furnace I was going to use and run the ductwork above the ceiling. Then when summer rolls around I was going to slip in a cooling coil on the air handler. The exaust will go through a small chimney in the back of the studio(same room as furnace but not built yet) and then pipe the air from the attic space as the fresh air intake.
#5: This is going to be for my friends and I. If there happens to be someone we like that wants to record here than hey, the more the marrier.
It isn't a commercial building though. It's more like a converted 2 car garage. You'd be suprised at all the "backyard businesses" in this area.
#6: the roof is 2x6,plywood,shingles.
#7:No environmental noise. To the north is the nearest neighbor(100' or so). There is a road seperating us but maybe 1 car every 20 minutes. To the east is a large stream(100' or so and then about 500 yards to the nearest neighbor in that direction). To the south is forest and fields( I'd say at least 1/2 mile to nearest neighbor). To the west is the house(45' but I don't care if I make too much noice to sleep).
#8:There is an excitisting 40 amp service which is a sub panel off of the 200 amp service in the house. I was planning on turning the 40 amp into a 100 amp. Obviously I will need to run heavier wire(2 gauge). My father and I will be doing the electric(we've built 3 of the homes we've lived in).
As far as permits and things go, My friend is a friend of the building inspector. The inspector basically said" The original building has a build permit and the electric has allready been approved. What we do inside to "remodel" is up to us as long as we aren't building a bathroom(next year) or changing the structural walls that are there allready. I don't know what else to say about that. We'll get the electric inspected becuase we're changing 40 amp to 100 amp but that isn't even necessary.
As far as the floors go, I was planning on floating the entire floor in different sections so there won't be a height differance from room to room. I was thinking something along the lines of 2x3 on top of rubber squares then filled with sand then plywood then laminate flooring with area rugs.
Back to the inner walls that are allready there. Could you point me to a link or something that could tell me how to properly fasten them if the way they are won't work somehow. I've gone through so many allready and see the drawings for them but i can't find how they are actually fastened. Are they just wedged in tight? Right now I'm still looking at this as I would building a home but I know that isn't the way I should be looking at it.
I appologize for all the ignorance.
Thank you
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cadesignr
- Senior Member
- Posts: 566
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:25 pm
- Location: Oregon USA
Hello Steve and wetdog
Steve, I hope I am not stepping on toes here. Just trying to help out. Just say the word "brainfarts" and I'm outta here. BTW, the three leaf thing was answered in my first post I THINK(remove inner drywall leaf, RIGHT? SEE BELOW THOUGH)
Sounds like a logical attempt at a resiliant connection, although I bet if the detail were submitted to BID, it would be rejected unless some kind of proven fire test had been also submitted. However, personally, now that I know EXACTLY what I wanted to know, I would do as I said earlier. Consider it as a spacer, as for all intents and purposes, as of now, it is USELESS as a wall element.
Now what you have to decide in regards to this wall is one of two things. And here is where Steve is the REAL answerman.
Either, for increased transmission loss, you TEAR OFF the existing drywall, and fasten a couple of layers of 5/8 gyp bd in the cavities of the outerwall right against the back of the ply. But this also means you would have to remove the existing insulation temporarily, which may be a bigger job than you want to do, but adding this mass will significantly improve the TL of the outer leaf, as 1/2" ply is very little mass. BUT, there is also Vinyl siding, which I REALLY don't know if this is considered a leaf by itself, as it is very thin, and we would need to know what type of configuration it is. Probably the stuff like my house, that looks like beveled siding. This would create an airgap, but I'm not sure if this even qualifies as one as mine DEFINETELY is not SEALED. According to John Sayers, any time you have an outer leaf that is not sealed, ignor it as it is vented. But lets see what Steve has to say. As far as I am concerned, only the ply is a leaf. Sooooooooooo,
OR...leave the 1/2" sheetrock in place, and drill(with a large hole saw)
or cut a bunch of large holes THOUGH the sheetrock at EVERY space between studs. This vents the airgap to the ply, but better yet, simply remove all of it. Otherwise, Steve is right, when you build your new walls, you would have 3 leafs.
#4
I don't have any comment on the HVAC thing, as it is out of my area of expertise. Maybe someone else can chime in if there is something that catches their attention.
#5 Thats good. Residential is MUCH easier to deal with. Sounds like a cool place.
#6 Ok, on the roof, we will wait to see your plans to comment on what to do ABOVE the new suspended ceiling. The only comment I have at the moment is to show the direction, span, and spaceing center to center of the joists, and the nominal size of the timbers.
#7 Cool, but just the same, DRUMS, late at night, may STILL transmit through the outer leaf if you don't line the cavities with gyp board, but I reserve the right to my disclaimer here This is what seperates the "think they knows" from the "absolutely sure they knows"..in other words....this is Steves area of expertise. 
Sorry. I know my limits.
#8Again, electrical is Steves specialty, and may have some advice on wiring for studio use, that is definetly different than your average household wiring. Grounding is the real issue. Seperate circuits for lights and equipment too. 100 amp huh? Cool...going to run some really big gear huh? Like 1000 watt lava lamps!!
Ok, I have a bunch of other comments, but they will have to wait till tomorrow. Like Steve, 4 hours sleep sucks, so talk more later.
Steve, get some rest Buddy.
fitZ
Steve, I hope I am not stepping on toes here. Just trying to help out. Just say the word "brainfarts" and I'm outta here.
BTW, the three leaf thing was answered in my first post I THINK(remove inner drywall leaf, RIGHT? SEE BELOW THOUGH)
Does that mean that the stud has a screw through the rubber the opposite direction to hold it in place#1:At the bottom there is 1 2x8 sill plate that both the walls are attached to. At the top, the joists are resting(and attached) on the outer walls. The inner wall comes up to the joists and is attached with a screw through each rubber piece(every 32").
Sounds like a logical attempt at a resiliant connection, although I bet if the detail were submitted to BID, it would be rejected unless some kind of proven fire test had been also submitted. However, personally, now that I know EXACTLY what I wanted to know, I would do as I said earlier. Consider it as a spacer, as for all intents and purposes, as of now, it is USELESS as a wall element.Now what you have to decide in regards to this wall is one of two things. And here is where Steve is the REAL answerman.
Either, for increased transmission loss, you TEAR OFF the existing drywall, and fasten a couple of layers of 5/8 gyp bd in the cavities of the outerwall right against the back of the ply. But this also means you would have to remove the existing insulation temporarily, which may be a bigger job than you want to do, but adding this mass will significantly improve the TL of the outer leaf, as 1/2" ply is very little mass. BUT, there is also Vinyl siding, which I REALLY don't know if this is considered a leaf by itself, as it is very thin, and we would need to know what type of configuration it is. Probably the stuff like my house, that looks like beveled siding. This would create an airgap, but I'm not sure if this even qualifies as one as mine DEFINETELY is not SEALED.
According to John Sayers, any time you have an outer leaf that is not sealed, ignor it as it is vented. But lets see what Steve has to say. As far as I am concerned, only the ply is a leaf. Sooooooooooo,OR...leave the 1/2" sheetrock in place, and drill(with a large hole saw)
or cut a bunch of large holes THOUGH the sheetrock at EVERY space between studs. This vents the airgap to the ply, but better yet, simply remove all of it. Otherwise, Steve is right, when you build your new walls, you would have 3 leafs.
Cool, post them when you can.#3: still working on the plans.
#4
I don't have any comment on the HVAC thing, as it is out of my area of expertise. Maybe someone else can chime in if there is something that catches their attention.
#5 Thats good. Residential is MUCH easier to deal with. Sounds like a cool place.
#6 Ok, on the roof, we will wait to see your plans to comment on what to do ABOVE the new suspended ceiling. The only comment I have at the moment is to show the direction, span, and spaceing center to center of the joists, and the nominal size of the timbers.
#7 Cool, but just the same, DRUMS, late at night, may STILL transmit through the outer leaf if you don't line the cavities with gyp board, but I reserve the right to my disclaimer here
This is what seperates the "think they knows" from the "absolutely sure they knows"..in other words....this is Steves area of expertise. Sorry. I know my limits.#8Again, electrical is Steves specialty, and may have some advice on wiring for studio use, that is definetly different than your average household wiring. Grounding is the real issue. Seperate circuits for lights and equipment too. 100 amp huh? Cool...going to run some really big gear huh? Like 1000 watt lava lamps!!
Ok, I have a bunch of other comments, but they will have to wait till tomorrow. Like Steve, 4 hours sleep sucks, so talk more later.
Steve, get some rest Buddy.
fitZ
alright, breaks over , back on your heads......
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cadesignr
- Senior Member
- Posts: 566
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:25 pm
- Location: Oregon USA
Well, I see no one has suggested running me out on a rail yet, so I guess it's ok to continue. Sorry I didn't get back sooner, but the best laid plans of mice and .......well, you know what I mean.
Ok, where were we....oh yea. Comments.
No need to explain. I was just curious in case of any commercial compiance conflicts would negate the time spent here. Nuff' said.
As it turns out, this is a good idea, as sand will dampen the vibrations in the floor structure. However, there are a couple of things to realize here, and beleive me, I've already built ONE floor like this. The framing was built in modules in a shop because of my plan, which was precision as hell. MY floor had built in cable troughs, that the legs of the console which I also custom built had to die into, as there are no feet on the legs. These legs are also cable troughs. Because of this precision, I chose to build the immediete framework (under the console) out of kiln dried Poplar. The rest of the framework was built out of nominal(but dry) Fir 2x6, but pre ripped to 5", so all edges were square and boards were equall width, with NO variations. This is why.
When I planned this floating floor, I knew NOTHING about this stuff. Hindsight is 2020 so they say, and I agree. Here is why. I planned on building these modules 5'x12', as I had access to 61"x145" 3/4" MDF, which I used as a subflooring. As I brought each frame in, we sheithed the BOTTOM with 1/2" CDX ply. This was done so I could fill the cavities with sand. Prior to placing each modual in its location, I contact cemented 2" x 6" strips of rubber to the ply, along the perimeter of the frames @ 16"oc, and across the width under the "joists". These modules were built just like a wall, the "joists being the "studs". As each module was placed, I fastened them together with 5/16" bolts and nuts. The design was such that after the whole floor was assembled and in place, I had two cable troughs, running the length of the floor , 6"wide and as deep as the framework. These troughs had their own piece of MDF subfloor, which I placed temporarily for the next step. Now we laid a visqueen poly layer on the framework as the plan was to fill the cavities with sand. I never got that far. Time and money were both short, and I ended up simply screwing the MDF panels in place temporarily, never to finish before having to COMPLETELY disassemble it, as this was in a garage in a RENTAL 
WHAT A MORON!! Well, let me tell you a couple of things.
#1 THINK about this 3 times before construction starts.
#2 Have a FULLY detailed plan, with every concieveable detail thought out in advance. SEE #3
#3 Do NOT assume anything in regards to the existing floor. Levelness, squareness, waterproofness, crack resistance, or SOUND transmissionness. Here is why.
When I disassembled this floor that I should have never built in the first place... I discovered some things that only experience can give you. First, a concrete floor is NEVER FLAT, NEVER level, Rooms are NEVER square and Murphy is just waiting for your patience to wear thin, or your attention to wane for one fleeting second,
The first thing that came to my attention was the smell of mildew. As we picked up the first panel, to my amazement, 6' long crack had formed under the panel, and ran clear to the wall. Up through this crack, water from a recent BAD storm had somehow come up through this crack, and THEN, since the floor was NOT flat, collected in a 1/4" deep pond 2 feet from the crack, in the middle under my floated floor. Had I not pulled up my floor, I would have NEVER found it. The next thing I discovered is part of the Plywood bottom, had been resting in this pool and was covered in a black residue(mildew?). I soon discovered why.
When I bought the rubber strips for using as pucks, I had asked for Neoprene, but knew NOTHING of qualitys of rubber, such as compression
characteristics. I knew I wanted resiliancy, so I listened to the clerk, and accepted his suggestion of a neoprene FOAM. It was stiff, hard, and seemed like it would do the trick, which it did to SOME extent, only for the wrong reasons. What it did do, was compress in the HIGH points of the concrete floor, and NOT at all, in the low points, to the degree that the framing had to SAG to compensate for the weight. The weight of the floor was not the problem. Equipment and fixtures was, as I had rolled in a 700lb "backisland", which was a fixture used in Macys behind showcase lines. This was to be my Tape Machine fixture, which was given to me by my boss when demo'd for a fixture redo at a local Macys. I worked for a Store fixture manufacturer at the time. It cost $14k, and was beautifull. However, it also was extremely heavy and took 6 guys to unload. So was my console which was bolted to the floor at the cable troughs, which placed a point load in those locations. Needless to say, this floor was never truly FLOATING. Had I filled it with sand, I might has well have not put in the pucks, as they would have been totally useless and FLAT!! Hence....DURO 60, weight calculations, EXTREME PLANNING, and forethought. Here is the next scenario.
Since I had ASSUMED this floor was level, the idea of PLANNING ahead, to provide a method for leveling this new floor was ...ahem....dismissed. What a nerd. The problem, was thinking of a way to adjust the height at various locations while IN PLACE, which was no easy task as there was already a BOTTOM on it. No way. Another hindsight management task.
When talking to Steve about this last month, his insight provided the answer.
SINCE, for M-A-M assemblys to acheive effective isolation at low frequency, the airgap must be as deep as space allows. In the case of my floor, I had a 1/2" thick rubber puck, and THAT was it! And once these pucks flattened, I pretty much had no airgap at all. When you fill your framework with sand, this complete assembly becomes ONE LEAF, and the existing concrete becomes the SECOND leaf, although I've often wondered how the ground under it fits into this scenario. STEVE!!!!!!!
( Like I said in my disclaimer. NOT AN EXPERT!!)
Therefore, according to Steve, to have any airgap at all, this framework must be raised as far as your room height will allow comfortably(and within code if inspected) to have a decent Low Frequency absorption. Not only that, but the Neoprene pucks MUST be sized, spaced and calculated for "springyness" at a calculated compression percentage according to the calculated weight of the floor itself, walls, doors, equipment, people and any other things that are supported by it. Not an easy task, but seemingly quite necessary if you don't like wasting money on something that may fail miserably, and THEN, still have relationship problems with neighbors.
Sooooooooo, to solve the leveling problem, the module with bottoms for sand problem, and the airgap problem, the solution is brilliantly simple. Build TWO frames. The first is a simple "deck like" support framing, consisting of "beams" to support the loads between the "pucks". This frame is LEVELED at the time of construction, and rest ON the pucks. The actual framing for floor sheithing, is built in MODULES, sheithed on the BOTTOM with, oh yea, I almost forgot, DON"T use 1/2", use 3/4" OSB or ply, as the weight of the sand is fully on this deck. BEFORE these modules are placed, wiring conduits, insulation, visqueen, and anything else that goes in there must be placed. Insulation should be packed in firm. Now the modules can be placed and fastened. Since you have a existing ceiling height of 9'+, and also have to suspend a ceiling from the joists, you are going to end up with quite a bit less. Oh well, what do you want, isolation or head room Just kidding. I would post a typical section and plan of this concept, but like I said, the computer with Autocad and my files is down at the moment. Maybe in a few days.
Well, again, I'm outta time and have to go. More tomorrow. Chew on that for a while, and I'll be back for another episode of ......"The Studio Trauma Chronicles"!!! Hahahahahaha!!
fitZ
Ok, where were we....oh yea. Comments.
As far as permits and things go, My friend is a friend of the building inspector. The inspector basically said" The original building has a build permit and the electric has allready been approved. What we do inside to "remodel" is up to us as long as we aren't building a bathroom(next year) or changing the structural walls that are there allready. I don't know what else to say about that.
No need to explain. I was just curious in case of any commercial compiance conflicts would negate the time spent here. Nuff' said.
Ok, this is the biggee so far. Your plan is exactly what I am doing(helping a friend)and I posted a few questions here a month ago in this regard.As far as the floors go, I was planning on floating the entire floor in different sections so there won't be a height differance from room to room. I was thinking something along the lines of 2x3 on top of rubber squares then filled with sand then plywood then laminate flooring with area rugs.
As it turns out, this is a good idea, as sand will dampen the vibrations in the floor structure. However, there are a couple of things to realize here, and beleive me, I've already built ONE floor like this. The framing was built in modules in a shop because of my plan, which was precision as hell. MY floor had built in cable troughs, that the legs of the console which I also custom built had to die into, as there are no feet on the legs. These legs are also cable troughs. Because of this precision, I chose to build the immediete framework (under the console) out of kiln dried Poplar. The rest of the framework was built out of nominal(but dry) Fir 2x6, but pre ripped to 5", so all edges were square and boards were equall width, with NO variations. This is why.
When I planned this floating floor, I knew NOTHING about this stuff. Hindsight is 2020 so they say, and I agree. Here is why. I planned on building these modules 5'x12', as I had access to 61"x145" 3/4" MDF, which I used as a subflooring. As I brought each frame in, we sheithed the BOTTOM with 1/2" CDX ply. This was done so I could fill the cavities with sand. Prior to placing each modual in its location, I contact cemented 2" x 6" strips of rubber to the ply, along the perimeter of the frames @ 16"oc, and across the width under the "joists". These modules were built just like a wall, the "joists being the "studs". As each module was placed, I fastened them together with 5/16" bolts and nuts. The design was such that after the whole floor was assembled and in place, I had two cable troughs, running the length of the floor , 6"wide and as deep as the framework. These troughs had their own piece of MDF subfloor, which I placed temporarily for the next step. Now we laid a visqueen poly layer on the framework as the plan was to fill the cavities with sand. I never got that far. Time and money were both short, and I ended up simply screwing the MDF panels in place temporarily, never to finish before having to COMPLETELY disassemble it, as this was in a garage in a RENTAL
WHAT A MORON!! Well, let me tell you a couple of things.#1 THINK about this 3 times before construction starts.
#2 Have a FULLY detailed plan, with every concieveable detail thought out in advance. SEE #3
#3 Do NOT assume anything in regards to the existing floor. Levelness, squareness, waterproofness, crack resistance, or SOUND transmissionness.
Here is why.When I disassembled this floor that I should have never built in the first place...
I discovered some things that only experience can give you. First, a concrete floor is NEVER FLAT, NEVER level, Rooms are NEVER square and Murphy is just waiting for your patience to wear thin, or your attention to wane for one fleeting second, The first thing that came to my attention was the smell of mildew. As we picked up the first panel, to my amazement, 6' long crack had formed under the panel, and ran clear to the wall. Up through this crack, water from a recent BAD storm had somehow come up through this crack, and THEN, since the floor was NOT flat, collected in a 1/4" deep pond 2 feet from the crack, in the middle under my floated floor. Had I not pulled up my floor, I would have NEVER found it. The next thing I discovered is part of the Plywood bottom, had been resting in this pool and was covered in a black residue(mildew?). I soon discovered why.
When I bought the rubber strips for using as pucks, I had asked for Neoprene, but knew NOTHING of qualitys of rubber, such as compression
characteristics. I knew I wanted resiliancy, so I listened to the clerk, and accepted his suggestion of a neoprene FOAM. It was stiff, hard, and seemed like it would do the trick, which it did to SOME extent, only for the wrong reasons. What it did do, was compress in the HIGH points of the concrete floor, and NOT at all, in the low points, to the degree that the framing had to SAG to compensate for the weight. The weight of the floor was not the problem. Equipment and fixtures was, as I had rolled in a 700lb "backisland", which was a fixture used in Macys behind showcase lines. This was to be my Tape Machine fixture, which was given to me by my boss when demo'd for a fixture redo at a local Macys. I worked for a Store fixture manufacturer at the time. It cost $14k, and was beautifull. However, it also was extremely heavy and took 6 guys to unload. So was my console which was bolted to the floor at the cable troughs, which placed a point load in those locations. Needless to say, this floor was never truly FLOATING. Had I filled it with sand, I might has well have not put in the pucks, as they would have been totally useless and FLAT!! Hence....DURO 60, weight calculations, EXTREME PLANNING, and forethought. Here is the next scenario.
Since I had ASSUMED this floor was level, the idea of PLANNING ahead, to provide a method for leveling this new floor was ...ahem....dismissed. What a nerd. The problem, was thinking of a way to adjust the height at various locations while IN PLACE, which was no easy task as there was already a BOTTOM on it. No way. Another hindsight management task.
When talking to Steve about this last month, his insight provided the answer.
SINCE, for M-A-M assemblys to acheive effective isolation at low frequency, the airgap must be as deep as space allows. In the case of my floor, I had a 1/2" thick rubber puck, and THAT was it! And once these pucks flattened, I pretty much had no airgap at all. When you fill your framework with sand, this complete assembly becomes ONE LEAF, and the existing concrete becomes the SECOND leaf, although I've often wondered how the ground under it fits into this scenario. STEVE!!!!!!!
( Like I said in my disclaimer. NOT AN EXPERT!!)Therefore, according to Steve, to have any airgap at all, this framework must be raised as far as your room height will allow comfortably(and within code if inspected) to have a decent Low Frequency absorption. Not only that, but the Neoprene pucks MUST be sized, spaced and calculated for "springyness" at a calculated compression percentage according to the calculated weight of the floor itself, walls, doors, equipment, people and any other things that are supported by it. Not an easy task, but seemingly quite necessary if you don't like wasting money on something that may fail miserably, and THEN, still have relationship problems with neighbors.
Sooooooooo, to solve the leveling problem, the module with bottoms for sand problem, and the airgap problem, the solution is brilliantly simple. Build TWO frames. The first is a simple "deck like" support framing, consisting of "beams" to support the loads between the "pucks". This frame is LEVELED at the time of construction, and rest ON the pucks. The actual framing for floor sheithing, is built in MODULES, sheithed on the BOTTOM with, oh yea, I almost forgot, DON"T use 1/2", use 3/4" OSB or ply, as the weight of the sand is fully on this deck. BEFORE these modules are placed, wiring conduits, insulation, visqueen, and anything else that goes in there must be placed. Insulation should be packed in firm. Now the modules can be placed and fastened. Since you have a existing ceiling height of 9'+, and also have to suspend a ceiling from the joists, you are going to end up with quite a bit less. Oh well, what do you want, isolation or head room
Just kidding. I would post a typical section and plan of this concept, but like I said, the computer with Autocad and my files is down at the moment. Maybe in a few days. Well, again, I'm outta time and have to go. More tomorrow. Chew on that for a while, and I'll be back for another episode of ......"The Studio Trauma Chronicles"!!! Hahahahahaha!!
fitZ
alright, breaks over , back on your heads......
-
sharward
- Moderator
- Posts: 4281
- Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:08 pm
- Location: Sacramento, Northern California, USA
- Contact:
Dead Thread?
It's kind of too bad this thread died... I wonder what ever came of Wet Dog's project. Also, our buddy Fitz put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into this thread, as a direct result of his having put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into his own infamous "floating floor that didn't" disaster -- from which we all have the privilege and benefit of learning.
Perhaps Wet Dog can give us an update... And perhaps y'all will enjoy this instant replay of Fitz's novella.
Perhaps Wet Dog can give us an update... And perhaps y'all will enjoy this instant replay of Fitz's novella.