New Garden Studio

shutupandshave · Post by **shutupandshave** » Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:30 pm

I've posted on these boards a couple of times, and I certainly read them a lot. I may have mentioned that I am building a studio in the house I am buying...

Well the house is bought, and it's time to make the studio.

The garden is about 8 metres wide (a little more I think), and about 20 metres long. Not that small (for the UK), but not big of course.

The studio is to go at the end of the garden which is the furthest point from everyone.

If someone has the time, perhaps they would be so kind as to answer these questions? I think it's important to mention that I want to use the live space as a rehearsel room as well (5 piece band, big drum kit, 2 guitarists with stacks, bassist with bass stack and singer).

1) Is the irregular shape of the studio going to be reasonable to do, based on the extra floor space I will gain, or is it just a huge waste of time?

2) Is there any way to reduce the size of the gap between the fence and the size of the studio. I have budgeted 3/4 of a metre for it at the moment (on each side, so 1.5m total), however that takes quite a dent out of the size of the studio.

3) If you see the attachment (slab4a.jpg) you will see that I have attached a diagram of the walls I am going to be building. Cladding nailed to 2x4 and then a 5cm gap, then the standard double studded wall construction. I am wondering if there is some way to optimise this, because as far as I'm concerned, everything from the outside of the double plasterboard to the outside of the cladding is wasted space... of course I dont want to compromise any sound-isolation...

4) Does this wall construction look like it will be suitable for me to play the drums behind 24 hours a day?

5) Ideally I would like a drum booth, a vocal booth, a grand piano room (and a grand piano to go in it) and a huge control room. More realistically I am going to have a control room and live room in one, or one of each. I DO want to be able to record properly, and I will be recording onto computer. How, if at all, do people think the space should be divided up?

6) I was just going to create a regular 4inch plasterboarded wall to seperate the live room and the studio - is there any reason why it would need to be thicker? I am only worried about the sound of a coffee cup or a comptuer fan affecting the sound in the live room - is that all I should be worried about?

Whilst writing this post, I thought about putting the contents of the control room on castors, and being able to roll it all back a bit, and somehow make the wall in the centre movable.... I may well be in cuckoo land now, but it would solve the space for the rehearsel room problem....

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:35 am

What you've drawn is called a triple leaf wall, and will actually REDUCE the amount of isolation, especially at lower (drum) frequencies. you would be better off using a 6x2 frame outside, using TWO layers of cladding, forgetting the middle frame, and building a 4x2 framed inner wall with each frame having cladding ONLY on ONE side - so your wall, from outside to inside, would be 2 layers of cladding (sealed as tightly as possible), 6x2 frame, entire air gap filled with fiberglass insulation, 4x2 inner frame, double (or triple) layer of gypsum wallboard - then, any acoustic treatment inside that. The total air gap (from inside surface of outer cladding, to inside edge of inner frame where gypsum starts) should be as wide as you can stand, up to about 12" - a 12" gap, if tightly sealed construction, should get you around 35 dB isolation at lowest (50 hZ) frequencies, and an STC of around 63 to 65.

Be sure to read the REFERENCE section link called "complete section" for more on wall methods -

I'll have to catch the rest of this later, falling asleep at the keyboard... Steve

shutupandshave · Post by **shutupandshave** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:13 pm

I have a friend that owns a metal work business, and having knocked him up a little website for free recently, thought I might call in a favour, and have an metal framework constructed, on to which I can bolt some corrugated tin or something similar. It may work out cheaper for me.

Due to the properties of the metal, would it still have the same sound transmission problems as the wooden construction?

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:25 pm

Metal framing and corrugated tin are generally not mentioned in paragraphs about sound proofing, mainly because they don't WORK for sound proofing - if you mean to use this construction as an outer shell, then build a mass-air-mass containment structure INSIDE that metal, it might work. Also, steel studs are used successfully as a frame to hold gypsum wallboard (multiple layers of it) in good soundproof construction.

Other than that, I'm not sure I understood your question... Steve

shutupandshave · Post by **shutupandshave** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:51 pm

I was talking about making an outer shell made of out of metal, and then building the double wall (2x gypsum, 4x2 and insulation, air gap, 4x2 and insulation, 2xgypsum) inside.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:23 am

Sure, that would work fine - only possible problem is moisture from condensation on the metal, you might need to use the "greenboard" type of gypsum on the outer leaf - it's made for damp locations, like bathrooms, etc - Steve

shutupandshave · Post by **shutupandshave** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:31 pm

How about using office partitioning instead of the double gypsum layer. From what I can tell it is just two pieces of gypsum board mounted on an aluminium frame. I do think it has a tiny (about a cm) amount if insulation between the two layers.

I don't know that much about this office partitioning, so I will try and find out.

cadesignr · Post by **cadesignr** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:50 am

How about using office partitioning instead of the double gypsum layer.

Pre manufacture office partitions offer a solution for partitioning off large spaces to create cubbys that absorb typical speach and office noise within the cubby. They do nothing for flanking sound over and around. I would think sing this for interior sheithing over a metal skin exterior or as the interior leaf is an exercise in frustration. Connections to floor, other panels, and ceiling would be a sealing and fastening folly. They are extremely expensive too, in relationship to typical wall fabrication The reality is, gyp board on metal or wood stud framing is used all over the world, as it is the quickest and cheapest way to build boundarys, AND has been approved by the permitting authorities because it has been TESTED, for fire, structural, assembly, finishing and other types of qualities.

Its ok to be creative with this sort of stuff, but if it only serves to empty your pocketbook and time quicker, then what is the point? Now if these panels were free, or extremely cheap, even I would consider it, but I would be extremely cognizant of how they were built in the first place to rationalize the connections and sealing. Cheap and fast can be chameleon on first glance:lol: Many other things have to be considered when using non-standard techniques and materials. Approval by the inspection process or permits being only one. But far be it from me to discourage creativity, especially when its not my pocketbook. Good luck and post some pics when you get that far.
fitZ

shutupandshave · Post by **shutupandshave** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:40 am

The panels are supposed to be free (or very very cheap), which is why I was considering this.

I think the potential problems you mentioned was pretty much what I was thinking. I will need to find out more about how the panels fit together. I am really just trying to save some money on plasterboard (and perhaps also 4x2) which would be great - as I have no money and I am building a recording studio in the garden

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:35 am

Be really careful of this if you need ANY level of soundproofing - these panels are NOT meant for much more than visual isolation and some voice attentuation, as Rick mentioned - if there is ANY gap between the two layers, then they qualify as a double leaf barrier, and adding a second one will do very little (if any) for your isolation.

Maybe you can find a way to sell or trade the freebies for the materials that will actually WORK for you??!? Just a thought... Steve

shutupandshave · Post by **shutupandshave** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:47 am

This is what I was afraid of.

I was kind of hoping that the fact the gypsum layers only had a VERY small gap between them wouldn't count.
I am not after an increase in sound isolation, I just dont want a decrease, which it sounds like - there will be.

Just to clarify...
gypsumlayer, 1cm gap filled with insulation, gypsumlayer|| Insulation, Air Gap (10-20 cm) Insulation || gypsumlayer, 1cm gap filled with insulation, gypsumlayer.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:58 am

Yeah, what you just described is a 4-leaf wall

Even a couple mm qualifies as an air gap, although not drastically so at low frequencies - it will, however, stand a good chance of passing things like cymbal crashes through the walls easier than it should -

I'm not saying that sometimes these different approaches wouldn't work, occasionally they might be OK - my caution is more that we don't KNOW if they will work, and the physics of isolation shows us why they likely will NOT work - If your time is worthless and you have these materials available, and have no problem ripping out everything you've built, it might be worth a try. If, however, you're more like me and value every moment of your time, I would stick to designs that are PROVEN to work by actual construction and testing - If you want a long list of that type, the canadians have very thoughtfully given us millions of $$ worth of free testing in IR-761 -

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/irc/fulltext/ir761/ir761.pdf

And, for concrete block,

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fulltext/ir586.pdf

I know these don't use the free panels you have access to, but if you build them well I also know what you'll have when you're done... Steve

shutupandshave · Post by **shutupandshave** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:49 pm

I laid the concrete at the weekend. It was pretty hard work, and I didn't have enough, so I was making up concrete by hand at the last minute. I am not looking forward to having to take the rowforms up.

The time for turning back has now passed.

Incidently should I be installing air conditioning? It seems to be a LOT of trouble to do so and very expensive... I dont mind sweating a bit (I enjoy it when playing) however I don't want to kill myself or anybody else or melt my equipment...

cadesignr · Post by **cadesignr** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:18 am

Incidently should I be installing air conditioning? It seems to be a LOT of trouble to do so and very expensive... I dont mind sweating a bit (I enjoy it when playing) however I don't want to kill myself or anybody else or melt my equipment...

It's not the sweating I'd worry about. It's breathing

When you hermetically seal a room correctly, that means airproof! You may not need air conditioning, but if you are sealing up this room good and tight, then ventilation is a real good idea

Which creats a conundrum. When you penetrate the shell for ducting, you open a path for noise. You need to do some research at this point. No sense in closing in this room till you do a bit of planning on this area. Usually, it is best if all these details were worked out PRIOR to construction. You might have needed a seperate slab for any HVAC equipment to isolate transmisson of vibration. If you mount any equipment within the shell, such as fans or compressors etc, make sure they are decoupled from the structure via isolators etc. Ducting, grills and registers, plenums, all are sources of noise if not planned correctly. This subject matter is worthy of it's own thread but let me add this. When people and equipment are placed in an insulated and sealed room, heat builds up fairly quickly. I don't mean slightly uncomfortable. I mean HOT. Not a good working environment for clients. Of course, if you are building this for your own use.only you can determine what is best for yourself. Although I can't stand sweat dripping on my mixer or guitar.

fitZ

shutupandshave · Post by **shutupandshave** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:02 am

I'm still trying to decide what to do on the outer wall.

I am leaning towards feather edge cladding, however I'm in debate as to what I am going to do definitely.

What I am thinking about is the following. Feather edge, then polythene wrapped around the entire outside of the building to ensure it's water-tight (and make sure it's sealed) then 2x6 studs and insulation, then 2 layers of plasterboard, air gap, 2x4 studs and insulation, 2 layers of plasterboard.

Is this going to cause problems?

Edit: - Caulking 115m2 of feather edge cladding would take me weeks so I really want to avoid this as much as possible. It would also cost a FORTUNE in caulking.