Studio & drum room based off Johns Small Studio design

[Ahva Dub]

Hi there legends,
[first post]

I have a carport which is a little bigger than this Small Studio design by John (https://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/view ... f=1&t=5457. I am trying to get the shape right basically but main difference I have between the original design and requirements is the ceiling which is A frame and my lack of walls. I have done a mock-up in Sketchup where the existing structure (double brick) is in pink and panel additions in purple and drywall in powder blue.

EDIT: I realize now that the original design has bass traps built in, so I have answered one of my own questions about the angle of the wall piece in the drum room. As I am building 3 of the walls then really I have a lot of freedom with room shape, but maybe too much freedom..

The ceiling is high a-frame, the "control room" will also be the live room and I was thinking of leaving ceiling as is structurally. I would build flat ceiling onto drum room though(!?)
Apart from the ceiling, the other big question is the angle of the end wall in the drum room, I'd rather have the window out (onto beautiful garden) than the angled wall so wonder if I need to change the angle of another wall ?


I appreciate things are best done properly but I will have to fudge it using what resources I have at my disposal.
I am in lockdown so this will be my project, I have limited funds due to a swathe of cancelled gigs and need to get the bones of the project done in the next couple of weeks as I can't make enough noise in current house situ to record/produce, I will just have to gather/DIY-build the internal materials and treatment from 2nd hand items as I can.
I am using insulated sandwich panels 50mm thick (2.56h x0.9w) with 80gcm rockwool between thin plastic and metal layer as my instant walls and drum room ceiling quick build option.
I only have nearfield monitors and large PA at the moment so not sure if control room soffit styles is really necessary so have removed but maybe should have kept angled wall sections?. I do want the room to be large enough to get to bass guitar notes accurately, 41Hz will do!
I won't be able to compete with other studios but this will be my own label production work space.

So once again, ---- main concerns are ceiling and drum room wall and that overall design can be imperfectly stretched a little without too much negative effects ---- Have i gone too far away from original for this design to be useable?
Workable space is 6.65m x 4.4m m ceiling is 4.3 m at high point. [Maybe I should go long ways instead of across for control/live room and have smaller wacky drum room idk ]

Any suggestions appreciated.

cheers!
Ahva Dub

[gullfo]

welcome!

could you post some photos of the existing structure? maybe flesh out the SU model with the current walls and windows etc. doors, etc. and post that here as well.

it's also helpful to understand the requirements for isolation and working habits. for example, drums make a lot of sound. do you have neighbors who will find that problematic at 3am? do you need multiple rooms? you'll definitely need a utility closet for your HVAC equipment if you're sealing the place up (isolation). what are you using this for? personal? rock bands? need isolation booths? amp closet? rough budget (helps to ensure the design can be built within your expected budget).

cheers!

[Ahva Dub]

welcome!
Thanks! Glad to be here

could you post some photos of the existing structure? maybe flesh out the SU model with the current walls and windows etc. doors, etc. and post that here as well.

Ok, existing wall in pink in diagram.

it's also helpful to understand the requirements for isolation and working habits. for example, drums make a lot of sound. do you have neighbors who will find that problematic at 3am? do you need multiple rooms? you'll definitely need a utility closet for your HVAC equipment if you're sealing the place up (isolation). what are you using this for? personal? rock bands? need isolation booths? amp closet? rough budget (helps to ensure the design can be built within your expected budget).

yes rock bands, probably midnight as late as normally go for bands but yes up to 3am for mixing sure. The area is suburban bush, all neighbours are across the road, the late night noise floor is from the highway at night about 5km away - so pretty quiet.
Yes multiple rooms good yes separate drum room, what about just using a splitter aircon? another room seems alot for the space..?
I'll try get those photos in the morning..

Thanks Heaps,
Ahva

[gullfo]

not sure the SIP panels will be structural enough to support interior ceiling. and the roof will likely need a layer of the SIP panels to add isolation. if you can do a room within a room using 2x4 and gwb you can probably do it. here's a quick and dirty model using just the 50mmx2,56hx0,9m panels. essentially make 2 rooms. one will have a ceiling to create side to symmetry (CR) and the other full height for angled ceiling. CR to have symmetrical treatments. LR can be corner treatments etc as needed. hvac could be suspended above CR ceiling extension, or a shed on build exterior. you'll need fresh air as well a humidity and temp control and a forced air box and AC coil (or heat pump coil) can do fresh air and temp, filter, humidity etc in one set of ducts. split units do not provide air. apparently drummers and producers need oxygen to function...

[Ahva Dub]

Ok so back to basics then.. Here is the original space as it is now. Also a basic straight walled plan.
I'm trying to introduce a drum room basically and also not sure how best to handle ceiling for main room.
cheers!
ahva

[gullfo]

for the drum room, as much height as possible. if the SIP panels are dense enough (and you have enough) then adding a layer inside the joists and filling that with light wall insulation will help with the isolation via the ceiling.
on the walls, you might (again if you have enough SIP panels) put them back to back to create a 100mm exterior wall. then if you have the budget, a 2x4 wall with gwb to create the inner walls. perhaps the back-to-back SIP panels could work there as well. in any back to back use, stagger the seams, the idea being the dense mass sides would be joined. while there is some risk of a third leaf reduction in TL, it might not be significant.

[Ahva Dub]

Wow thanks gullfo! Very cool, this will take me a little time to digest but thank you!

[Ahva Dub]

. hvac could be suspended above CR ceiling extension, or a shed on build exterior. you'll need fresh air as well a humidity and temp control and a forced air box and AC coil (or heat pump coil) can do fresh air and temp, filter, humidity etc in one set of ducts. split units do not provide air. apparently drummers and producers need oxygen to function...

Ok well I probably need fresh air more than air-con actually as its fairly temperate here! I wonder if anyone has used passive type systems like this one : ?
https://silenceair.com/wp-content/uploa ... ilator.pdf

Still I am double thinking the two room idea.. there seems to be a thing about 70 cubic metres of room space being a minimum for a good studio, for enough bass and less room modes.. Am I better off just using all the space as a hybrid control room?!
If so I can splay the walls by using 4 panels at short end and 5 panels at long.. assuming the ceiling is ok shape..
see image:

[gullfo]

you could go with a all-in-one room, many people do. and just create the symmetry for "control room" listening position. i'd just build out the walls and ceiling to meet the isolation needs, then use acoustic treatments to create the room(s) response. i'd consider variable treatments so you can optimize between live room tracking and control room mixing modes.

[Ahva Dub]

you could go with a all-in-one room, many people do. and just create the symmetry for "control room" listening position. i'd just build out the walls and ceiling to meet the isolation needs, then use acoustic treatments to create the room(s) response. i'd consider variable treatments so you can optimize between live room tracking and control room mixing modes.

Ok thank you Glenn, I like the idea of variable treatments for a hybrid room. I'll do some research on what they could be , beyond curtains..
And your 2 room design is good - now to decide and apply!

[Ahva Dub]

Ok so I have built the room and it is a wonderful echo chamber. It turned out the sandwich insulated panels that were supposed to have plastic on one side and metal on the other (covering 80 gsm rockwool) is just metal all around. So i have created an amazing sealed metal resonant chamber that transmits vibrations nicely I was thinking to dampen it somehow with rubber but I am thinking now to just screw drywall internally to the panels using some rubber strips to provide a dampening layer. Any suggestions welcome

[Paulus87]

Ok so I have built the room and it is a wonderful echo chamber. It turned out the sandwich insulated panels that were supposed to have plastic on one side and metal on the other (covering 80 gsm rockwool) is just metal all around. So i have created an amazing sealed metal resonant chamber that transmits vibrations nicely I was thinking to dampen it somehow with rubber but I am thinking now to just screw drywall internally to the panels using some rubber strips to provide a dampening layer. Any suggestions welcome

It is normal at this stage for the internal acoustics of the space to be very echoey and horrible, but as you start adding acoustic treatment it will start to get tamer, but also make some acoustic issues more obvious e.g. flutter echo. However, once you have sufficiently treated it, and depending on what design criteria you're aiming for, you will end up with a nice sounding live room and a very comfortable control room.

How well are those SIPS isolating sound between the inside and outside? If you're talking about vibrations transmitting through to the outside world then yes, damping and adding mass will improve things.

To stop the metal resonating (I'm surprised the rock wool "sandwich filler" isn't doing a good job of that?) a cheap way is to get a load of water & ice shield, or, non-textured roofing felt and attach it to all the metal surfaces. Then you can add the drywall layers on over that.

Are you building a second set of walls and ceiling, completely decoupled from this metal shell?

[Ahva Dub]

However, once you have sufficiently treated it, and depending on what design criteria you're aiming for, you will end up with a nice sounding live room and a very comfortable control room.

Yay thank you for the reassurance! The reverb is nice , maybe due to the room ratios I chose?

How well are those SIPS isolating sound between the inside and outside? If you're talking about vibrations transmitting through to the outside world then yes, damping and adding mass will improve things.

Ok yep sound coming in and sound going out through that metal. But it's certainly less as the room is very close to airtight.

To stop the metal resonating (I'm surprised the rock wool "sandwich filler" isn't doing a good job of that?) a cheap way is to get a load of water & ice shield, or, non-textured roofing felt and attach it to all the metal surfaces. Then you can add the drywall layers on over that.

I think the Rockwood is dampening many frequencies , but the 1k to 3k transmits nicely as the inside metal layer is joined nicely to the outside layer every meter LoL

I love this suggestion , I am going to find out what this water & ice shield is!

Are you building a second set of walls and ceiling, completely decoupled from this metal shell?

I do plan to attempt it. It won't be fully decoupled though as one part of the wall reaching up to the ceiling is plywood and drywall, built on top of the panels.
I was going to drill holes in the drywall and screw into the metal through strips of tyre rubber both inside and out every meter such that the screw does not touch the drywall, only the metal and rubber.

Thanks heaps Paulus