Introduction and construction questions

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MillerMav
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Location: Michigan, United States

Introduction and construction questions

Post by MillerMav »

Good morning/afternoon everyone,

I have finally decided to pull the trigger on building a dedicated drumming space in my home. I live in Michigan (United States), and own my home on 1.8 acres of land. The room I want to use is already the drum room but has no modifications and is literally bare (just studs, concrete floor, no ceiling). The majority of the basement is finished but I left this room unfinished with the hopes of turning it into a "reduced sound" practice space.

What I hope to achieve is a room that sounds good and is marginally isolated from the rest of the house. As a drummer on a limited budget (no more than $750 if I can) I don't have any dreams of playing while my kids are asleep or something like that. What I want is an area I can play and people in other areas of the house will hear me but could easily have a conversation or watch a movie while I'm playing. Right now, it's muffled from basic construction but you can definitely still hear me playing and it's not comfortable no matter where you are.

I have done a bit of research and I plan to do acoustic (green glue) sealant everywhere, fiberglass insulation between studs and two layers of 5/8" drywall on the walls with a single layer on the ceiling. I would do green glue between drywall layers but that would put me over budget. For ventilation I plan to put an exhaust fan and duct work on the far side of the room, up high where I have to build a soffet to clear some plumbing anyway. For intake I am going to build a box at floor level on the opposite side of the room to draw in air from the remainder of the basement. I will carpet this and put some shelving on it as well to store additional snares and cymbals. The room is already wired with an outlet on each wall and a light switch near the door (a single bulb fixture is already wired in as well). I plan to add an additional fixture to the ceiling as well. In addition to this I am going to wire in XLR outlets on the soffet down to one wall and install permanent overhead fixtures off of the soffet so I can run overheads without huge booms and cable running everywhere.

That being said I don't plan to do any serious recording in here and mainly use two overheads and a bass mic to run to my in ear monitors just to save my hearing while practicing. I'll stop blabbering now and put up a drawing of the room as I hope it will end up. Please provide any feedback you may have or advice for a beginner.

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Soundman2020
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Re: Introduction and construction questions

Post by Soundman2020 »

Hi. Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things! :)
The room I want to use is already the drum room but has no modifications and is literally bare (just studs, concrete floor, no ceiling). The majority of the basement is finished but I left this room unfinished with the hopes of turning it into a "reduced sound" practice space.
Room dimensions? (all three).
I have done a bit of research and I plan to do acoustic (green glue) sealant everywhere,
Green Glue compound (the stuff you put between layers of drywall) is fantastic. The best there is, and worth every cent. Green Glue acoustic sealant, on the other hand, is not. You can do better, for much less money. Use ordinary bathroom / kitchen caulk to seal up your room. Get good quality stuff, of the type that never hardens: it always stays soft and rubbery, even when fully cured.
fiberglass insulation between studs and two layers of 5/8" drywall on the walls with a single layer on the ceiling.
Why different on the walls and ceiling? If you don't plan to do two layers on the ceiling, then save some money and don't do it on the walls either! It would be a waste: Don't get me wrong! The ideal thing is to have two layers, certainly, but only if you do it on all sides of the room. Otherwise, it makes no sense.

The money you save by NOT putting that second drywall up, would be much better spent on resilient channel to go around the entire room, on all sides, to decouple the drywall from the studs. Major improvement.
For ventilation I plan to put an exhaust fan and duct work on the far side of the room, up high where I have to build a soffet to clear some plumbing anyway.
OK, but you do need to do some calculations here, to figure out what duct size you need, and the fan specifications.... You can't just throw in any old duct and any old fan...
For intake I am going to build a box at floor level on the opposite side of the room to draw in air from the remainder of the basement.
Check your building code: that might be illegal. Many building codes do not allow you to supply the fresh air for one room from the stale exhaust air of another room.
and install permanent overhead fixtures off of the soffet so I can run overheads without huge booms and cable running everywhere.
Don't forget to allow for the treatment! You will need a LOT of treatment on the ceiling over the drum kit, so your mic fixtures will have to be long enough to protrude through that...


- Stuart -
MillerMav
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 3:29 am
Location: Michigan, United States

Re: Introduction and construction questions

Post by MillerMav »

The room dimensions are on the photo/drawing of the room.

L = 165
W = 128
H1 = 107 (maximum overhead height after drywall)
H2 = 84 (height to bottom of soffit)

I will check code for air circulation that's a good point. I hear you on the single layer on the ceiling so I guess I can do 2 layers but going to single layer with resilient channel would definitely put me over budget.

Thank you for the tips.
MillerMav
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 3:29 am
Location: Michigan, United States

Re: Introduction and construction questions

Post by MillerMav »

During further examination last night I noticed that there is a second step in the ceiling height due to existing plumbing and what not. I noticed the cross beam before but figured I could remove it, I could it would be a good base for a second soffit or step in the ceiling.

My question for all of you is would this "stepped ceiling" be better for sound than if I went with just a solid ceiling at a lower height?

The solid ceiling would have the single soffit at 84" from the ground and then a ceiling height of 107" for the reminder of the room. If do the stepped ceiling it would be 84" to the soffit, then go out 56" with an 107" ceiling height and then the remainder of the ceiling would be at 117". I have read before that not having a perfect box is a good thing when it comes to sound and I think it would actually be easier to do this stepped concept because I could run the furring channel at the max height which would make drywall application that much easier. Here is a side view shot of the room with the stepped ceiling and dimensions.
DrumRoom2.JPG
I was going to do track lighting at 117", then two smaller spot light style lights at 107. I also priced out Roxul and am planning to go with that in the walls and ceiling as it ended up not being as expensive as originally planned. Last thing, does anyone have experience with laminate wood flooring in their practice spaces? I found a great deal at the local HD for some Teak laminate that would look killer, with a cork underlayment I think it would work out well. I had no intention of floating the floor but I have read that cork underlayment does help a bit to keep the noise down. I just want to reiterate that I am not looking for absolute silence outside of the room just bringing it down a few notches to make the rest of the house more comfortable to be in while I'm playing.

Once again, any feedback would be appreciated, thank you.
Soundman2020
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Re: Introduction and construction questions

Post by Soundman2020 »

There is an announcement at the top of the forum about what to do to assure getting as many responses as possible.
The announcement leads to this post (click here). Actually, several people, who are experts on this forum, will most likely not reply if you don't do what is written in that post. Many others who are very helpful, will most likely not reply out of respect for the moderators' wishes.

I already mentioned this once before, but I guess you missed it . . .

- Stuart -
MillerMav
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 3:29 am
Location: Michigan, United States

Re: Introduction and construction questions

Post by MillerMav »

I have provided as much detail as I am physically able to do with drawings, dimensions (xyz), location, expectations, budget, volume, I searched the FAQ, listed my location in the second sentence, etc.... I think I covered everything listed in the post which I read thoroughly before posting. If new people are ignored until they are perfect then I can tell you I will never be perfect and will find somewhere else to take my non perfect posts and questions.

Thank you for your time.


Moderators please close the thread
Soundman2020
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Re: Introduction and construction questions

Post by Soundman2020 »

If new people are ignored until they are perfect then I can tell you...
Nope: Not even close. All they have to do is to READ THE RULES! Especially the part in LARGE BLUE TEXT about half way down the page. The part that lists the single most important point of all.
I think I covered everything listed in the post
No you did not. If you would have done so, then I would not be writing this.
which I read thoroughly before posting.
You clearly did not. If that were true, then you would have seen the single most important rule of all, and you would have complied with it. It's the only one highlighted in large blue letters. It's the only one that basically says "If you don't do what this rule says, then we will know that you didn't read any of the rules, and actually don't give a damn about rules".
If new people are ignored until they are perfect then I can tell you I will never be perfect and will find somewhere else to take my non perfect posts and questions.
Feel free to do that, but let's hope you do a better job of reading their rules, than you did of reading our rules.

This is a community. Like all communities, there are rules. We don't have many of them (only 15), and we only have one rule that is highlighted in over-sized blue text, to make it stand out from the others (number 3). The fact that you could not see it, even after being reminded twice, and even though you claim to have read it thoroughly, speaks volumes.

If all of the other 21,000-something members were able to see that rule and comply with it, how come you could not?

Let's try one more time: Here's the link. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3231

If you'd care to actually read it, and actually comply, then you'll be welcome here. If you don't, then you probably won't be welcome anywhere.


- Stuart -
MillerMav
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 3:29 am
Location: Michigan, United States

Re: Introduction and construction questions

Post by MillerMav »

Since I hit on every request except one wouldn't it have been easier to just say "You may have missed it, but posting your location not just in the post but in your profile would really help encourage more responses. Thanks!"...? I am moderator of a large automotive forum that also has rules for posting and that is how I would have handled it with someone who is new and probably already nervous about being a total newb to all of this so they may have missed something while trying to get it right. I'm sorry I missed it and honestly did read through it 3 times. I just hope that the next person to come along and get it wrong is treated with a little more patience. Take care and best of luck to you.
Soundman2020
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Re: Introduction and construction questions

Post by Soundman2020 »

Well, that's your method of moderating. On this forum, we aren't here to baby-sit, and hold hands. We just don't have time for that. I have a couple of boiler-plate "copy-paste" responses for newbies who forget to fill in their profile. First, a nice one with a gentle reminder. You got that on your first post. Then a second more direct one, for folks who didn't notice the first one. You got that one too. The vast majority of newbies get it on the first try, and the remainder get it on the second try. After that, I'm not interested in playing nice any more. I assume that members who are about to embark on the giant project of building a studio are emotionally stable enough to take a sharp word and deal with it.

People who come here usually just want help, and don't care for being nursed and coddled through their builds: They just want the plain truth and sound advice, and don't care if it comes harshly (especially considering that they know that it comes for free, from some of the most respected studio designers in the world). We don't pull our punches, we are not politically correct, and to be very honest, I really don't give a damn if somebody doesn't like my style of administering the forum and responding to threads. There might be other places that will molly-coddle unhappy newbies, but I don't have the time or the patience for that. If I look at somebody's partial design, and say "That's a terrible way of doing XYZ", I don't expect them to burst into tears and go hide in the corner, or run away! I expect them to handle it like a mature adult man or woman, and say: "OK, thanks. How do I fix that?". Because anyone who can't handle a short, blunt comment like that with no sugar coating is not going to be able to do what it takes to build a studio anyway.

so please take that for whatever you think it's worth.

Now, to answer your questions:
My question for all of you is would this "stepped ceiling" be better for sound than if I went with just a solid ceiling at a lower height?
Very probably, yes. In general, anything you can do to increase the room volume will probably improve the overall acoustics. The rule is simple: Small rooms sound bad. The smaller it is, the worse it sounds. That applies to footprint, and also to height. Especially with drums. Drums always sound better with a higher ceiling. So if you do go this route, be sure to set up your kit under the highest part of the ceiling, not the lowest.
The room dimensions are on the photo/drawing of the room.
Except that the text and numbers on that original photo are not legible.
The solid ceiling would have the single soffit at 84" from the ground and then a ceiling height of 107" for the reminder of the room. If do the stepped ceiling it would be 84" to the soffit, then go out 56" with an 107" ceiling height and then the remainder of the ceiling would be at 117".
Excellent. That's a worthwhile inc erase in height, and volume. 23 inches of extra room height is very good. Use it!
I have read before that not having a perfect box is a good thing when it comes to sound
I've read that too, but the truth is a lot more complicated than that. A perfectly rectangular room can sound fantastic, if done right, while a non-parallel, multi-sided, angled, faceted room can sound disgusting. It's all about volume, angles, dimensions, construction materials, and treatment. There are certain things that treatment can help with a lot, some other things that it can help with a little, and some things that it can do nothing about, at all.

It would be nice if things were all cut and dried, and phrases like "not having a perfect box is a good thing" were always true, but it isn't. Abbey Road, for example: Every single room in the entire building is a "perfect box" (simple rectangle), yet not too many people would say that it's "not a good thing!"
...because I could run the furring channel ...
Furring channel? You are planning on using furring channel? Then how come you don't want to use resilient channel???? The price difference is not all that much... The acoustic difference is night and day!
I was going to do track lighting at 117", then two smaller spot light style lights at 107.
That's fine, as long as nothing penetrates your drywall. No holes for cables, light boxes, switches, etc. Any hole, even a tiny one, will trash your isolation. Use only surface mounted electrical stuff.
I also priced out Roxul and am planning to go with that in the walls and ceiling as it ended up not being as expensive as originally planned.
What density? For that application you need 50 kg/m3 for mineral wool, or 30 kg/m3 for fiberglass. (Ballpark. Not critical, but get close.)
Last thing, does anyone have experience with laminate wood flooring in their practice spaces?
Yes. It is an excellent acoustical surface, and the good quality stuff also wears well. I have done many rooms like that, and it looks good, as well as working well for acoustics. There are many examples of forum members who have done that too. This room, for example, is done with laminated flooring http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 Not just the control room, but all of the rooms. It looks great, and sounds great.
I have read that cork underlayment does help a bit to keep the noise down.
It won't do anything at all to isolate the room with respect to airborne sound. But it will help slightly with impact sound. However, even better than cork is the proper acoustic underlay that is specifically designed for laminate flooring. It is synthetic, not cork. Normal underlay is usually 2 or 3mm thick: Acoustic underlay is usually 5 or 6mm thick. It is soft and a bit spongy to the feel. Usually comes in rolls. Easy to lay, and very effective.
I just want to reiterate that I am not looking for absolute silence outside of the room just bringing it down a few notches to make the rest of the house more comfortable to be in while I'm playing.
Even the best laminate flooring with acoustic underlay is not going to take out the impact noise of a drum kit completely. You might want to consider building a drum riser that further isolates your kit form the actual floor.

- Stuart -
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