Making my new studio in Burbank

Plans and things, layout, style, where do I put my near-fields etc.

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plisken
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Making my new studio in Burbank

Post by plisken »

Hey guys!

Im currently building out a new production room in my studio and a good friend of mine suggested that I come here to get advice on how to do it properly and effectively, so here I am!

So this room is roughly 17' by 10.5' with a 11' ceiling.

Here are some pictures

Image

Image

First thing I'm kind of stuck on is what to do with the roof? This room will primarily be used for mixing and mastering. It will also be used as a control room for the tracking room next door sometimes. A friend suggested that I could fill it up with insolation and just cover it all up with a fabric? Or should I go dry wall? maybe a 3rd option I'm unaware of?

Second thing is optimal placement for my desk and monitors, etc. I would like to have a spot for some guitar amps, keyboards and a couch too. But most important is placement of the desk and monitors. In this regard I actually am not sure at all where would be best =/.

Other than that, all that would be left is flooring and if I should have light fixtures on the roof or just go with a floor lamp or something?

I should mention I do have a bunch of bass traps and treatment already for the room, something like 16 panels.

Any and all help if greatly appreciated!
Last edited by plisken on Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Soundman2020
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Re: Making my new studio in Burbank

Post by Soundman2020 »

Hi there "plisken". Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things! :)
this room is roughly 17' by 10.5' with a 11' ceiling.
It's a decent sized room for a control room, a bit on the small side, but still usable. Not ideal for mastering, though. Mastering suites usually work better in larger rooms. However, you do have good ceiling height. That's excellent.
A friend suggested that I could fill it up with insolation and just cover it all up with a fabric? Or should I go dry wall? maybe a 3rd option I'm unaware of?
Unfortunately, it's quite a bit more complex than that! :roll: Control rooms are "critical listening rooms", and mastering rooms even more so. There are very specific requirements that the room must meet, acoustically, in order to be usable as a mastering room. For mastering, the room must be acoustically neutral: it cannot "color" the sound. It must not add anything to the sound coming from the speakers, and it must not take anything away from that sound either. It has to tell the truth, sonically. In other words, what the engineer hears when he is sitting at the mix position, must be just the speakers, only the speakers, and nothing else. No reflections from the walls, floor, ceiling, console, or desk, no modal resonances, no early-early sound, no SBIR, comb filtering, or other phase cancellation issues, smooth reverberation and decay, flat frequency response, and a bunch of other things. If you take a look at ITU BS.1116-2, you'll find the set of conditions that a control needs to meet to be usable for mixing and mastering.

Take a look at this thread: scroll down a bit to see the results of the room tuning process for that studios. That's what the acoustic response should be for a room that is intended for serious mixing and mastering.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471
Second thing is optimal placement for my desk and monitors,
That's actually first, not second! :) Correct placement and geometry for the speakers and mix position is the very first thing that needs to be done for the room. The speakers and mix position must be kept out of the room nulls, and located such that the artifacts caused by phase cancellations from the walls, floor and ceiling do not fall at important points on the spectrum, and can be dealt with using suitable treatment at the correct locations in the room. There are "rules of thumb" for getting all that that right, and methods for measuring the response and refining the positions and relative locations.

It is nowhere near as simple as your friend suggests.
all that would be left is flooring
That's simple: In your case, it looks like you have a good concrete slab floor in your room, so you are already done! :)

That's about the best floor you can get, acoustically. Polish it, stain it, or whatever other treatment you'd like, and that's all you need. Or if you don't like concrete, then just lay ordinary laminate flooring directly over that, on a suitable underlay.

But the floor is usually the last thing you do in a studio, so if you do want laminate, don't do it yet. Just leave it as concrete until everything else is in place.
if I should have light fixtures on the roof or just go with a floor lamp or something?
You can go either way. You can't embed anything into the ceiling, of course! But you can use surface-mount fixtures, in places that won't be covered up by the ceiling treatment. Personally, I prefer to put at least some of the lighting in the cloud itself, as you can see in the photos in that link above. I often also do concealed lighting above the or below the treatment devices. There are many options.
I should mention I do have a bunch of bass traps and treatment already for the room, something like 16 panels.
How do you know if they are the correct devices for the room? :) You can't just throw any old bit of acoustic treatment into any old position in the room, especially for a mastering suite! The treatment needs to be specifically designed, and specifically located, to treat the specific issues that the room has.

All of the above assumes that the room is already isolated correctly, but that doesn't seem to be the case from the photos. Master suites need to be very quiet inside (NC-20 or lower), which implies very good isolation. The electrical panel on the wall, single in-winging door, and the simple 2x4 plywood ceiling suggest that the room is not isolated at all! It seems to be just a plain old room. If that's the case, then before you can do anything else you need to figure out your isolation. Building the isolation system is going to shrink the room by many inches on each side, and only then can you think about room geometry, layout, and treatment.

The other major issue that you seem to be forgetting is HVAC: There are no registers anywhere in that room, so it can't be used like that for a professional mixing or mastering suite. HVAC is a big issue in studios, and is an absolute necessity. It often takes me as long to design the HVAC system for a studio as it does to do the entire structural design and acoustic design together! It's a big deal.
Any and all help if greatly appreciated!
My advice would be to re-think this from the beginning: The normal method for planning a studio starts with a clear definition of purpose and goals, which includes deciding on the level of isolation that will be needed (in decibels: how many decibels of sound attenuation do your walls, floor, ceiling, windows, doors, HVAC, and electrical system need to supply? Once you know that, everything else starts to fall into place: you can determine what type of isolation walls and air gap you will need, which determines the final dimensions of the room interior, which in turn determines what the modal response will look like, which determines the type, sizes and locations of the base traps as well as the correct positions, layout and geometry for the speakers and mix position, which once again determines the locations for the initial basic treatment. It's a process, a sequence, that you need to follow to get from where you are to where you want to be. Once you get the room built to that stage (initial treatment already in place), then you can measure the actual acoustic response of the room, compare the results to what it should be, and design the next level of treatment.

- Stuart -
plisken
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Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:15 am
Location: Burbank,CA USA
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Re: Making my new studio in Burbank

Post by plisken »

Soundman2020 wrote:Hi there "plisken". Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things! :)
this room is roughly 17' by 10.5' with a 11' ceiling.
It's a decent sized room for a control room, a bit on the small side, but still usable. Not ideal for mastering, though. Mastering suites usually work better in larger rooms. However, you do have good ceiling height. That's excellent.
A friend suggested that I could fill it up with insolation and just cover it all up with a fabric? Or should I go dry wall? maybe a 3rd option I'm unaware of?
Unfortunately, it's quite a bit more complex than that! :roll: Control rooms are "critical listening rooms", and mastering rooms even more so. There are very specific requirements that the room must meet, acoustically, in order to be usable as a mastering room. For mastering, the room must be acoustically neutral: it cannot "color" the sound. It must not add anything to the sound coming from the speakers, and it must not take anything away from that sound either. It has to tell the truth, sonically. In other words, what the engineer hears when he is sitting at the mix position, must be just the speakers, only the speakers, and nothing else. No reflections from the walls, floor, ceiling, console, or desk, no modal resonances, no early-early sound, no SBIR, comb filtering, or other phase cancellation issues, smooth reverberation and decay, flat frequency response, and a bunch of other things. If you take a look at ITU BS.1116-2, you'll find the set of conditions that a control needs to meet to be usable for mixing and mastering.

Take a look at this thread: scroll down a bit to see the results of the room tuning process for that studios. That's what the acoustic response should be for a room that is intended for serious mixing and mastering.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471
Second thing is optimal placement for my desk and monitors,
That's actually first, not second! :) Correct placement and geometry for the speakers and mix position is the very first thing that needs to be done for the room. The speakers and mix position must be kept out of the room nulls, and located such that the artifacts caused by phase cancellations from the walls, floor and ceiling do not fall at important points on the spectrum, and can be dealt with using suitable treatment at the correct locations in the room. There are "rules of thumb" for getting all that that right, and methods for measuring the response and refining the positions and relative locations.

It is nowhere near as simple as your friend suggests.
all that would be left is flooring
That's simple: In your case, it looks like you have a good concrete slab floor in your room, so you are already done! :)

That's about the best floor you can get, acoustically. Polish it, stain it, or whatever other treatment you'd like, and that's all you need. Or if you don't like concrete, then just lay ordinary laminate flooring directly over that, on a suitable underlay.

But the floor is usually the last thing you do in a studio, so if you do want laminate, don't do it yet. Just leave it as concrete until everything else is in place.
if I should have light fixtures on the roof or just go with a floor lamp or something?
You can go either way. You can't embed anything into the ceiling, of course! But you can use surface-mount fixtures, in places that won't be covered up by the ceiling treatment. Personally, I prefer to put at least some of the lighting in the cloud itself, as you can see in the photos in that link above. I often also do concealed lighting above the or below the treatment devices. There are many options.
I should mention I do have a bunch of bass traps and treatment already for the room, something like 16 panels.
How do you know if they are the correct devices for the room? :) You can't just throw any old bit of acoustic treatment into any old position in the room, especially for a mastering suite! The treatment needs to be specifically designed, and specifically located, to treat the specific issues that the room has.

All of the above assumes that the room is already isolated correctly, but that doesn't seem to be the case from the photos. Master suites need to be very quiet inside (NC-20 or lower), which implies very good isolation. The electrical panel on the wall, single in-winging door, and the simple 2x4 plywood ceiling suggest that the room is not isolated at all! It seems to be just a plain old room. If that's the case, then before you can do anything else you need to figure out your isolation. Building the isolation system is going to shrink the room by many inches on each side, and only then can you think about room geometry, layout, and treatment.

The other major issue that you seem to be forgetting is HVAC: There are no registers anywhere in that room, so it can't be used like that for a professional mixing or mastering suite. HVAC is a big issue in studios, and is an absolute necessity. It often takes me as long to design the HVAC system for a studio as it does to do the entire structural design and acoustic design together! It's a big deal.
Any and all help if greatly appreciated!
My advice would be to re-think this from the beginning: The normal method for planning a studio starts with a clear definition of purpose and goals, which includes deciding on the level of isolation that will be needed (in decibels: how many decibels of sound attenuation do your walls, floor, ceiling, windows, doors, HVAC, and electrical system need to supply? Once you know that, everything else starts to fall into place: you can determine what type of isolation walls and air gap you will need, which determines the final dimensions of the room interior, which in turn determines what the modal response will look like, which determines the type, sizes and locations of the base traps as well as the correct positions, layout and geometry for the speakers and mix position, which once again determines the locations for the initial basic treatment. It's a process, a sequence, that you need to follow to get from where you are to where you want to be. Once you get the room built to that stage (initial treatment already in place), then you can measure the actual acoustic response of the room, compare the results to what it should be, and design the next level of treatment.

- Stuart -

Oh my bad on missing some of the rules!

Are the pictures I included too big? I can resize them if necessary. I will try and answer everything mentioned in the rules thread. Hopefully I dont miss something again >.<

So in terms of how loud I will be and noise from others around me its not really an issue. The entire studio will pretty much only ever be used by me. Noise from others is not a concern. As for how loud I will be, I generally dont mix loud, I pretty much never go above 85 db. Usually I will stay a little lower (around 65 db) and do checks at a louder db every now and then. When Im Mastering I do go a bit louder, around 90-95 db. But once again, the noise I make isnt a concern for anyone around me. The studio is in a commercial space on a ground floor.

So I did forget to mention about that wall with the electrical panel. Apparently we cant have it moved and its a fire code violation to just put a wall over it (obviously lol....). A solution someone suggested to me was to cover that entire wall with heavy theater curtains....Thoughts on this? Im guessing its not ideal :S?

As for the floor, yes im pretty sure im just going to keep it simple and at most stain it.

As for the walls currently there. The wall on the left (when entering the room) does have insulation and what not, the tracking room is on the other side of that wall. The wall opposite of it does not.
The roof im open to doing what ever needs to be done pretty much, I just need to know what. Is what my friend suggested a bad idea? Their would be no reflections at all right? Should I just put insulation and cover it with dry wall?

As for placement of the desk and monitors I dont really have a preference, I was going to base it on what will be the most acoustically sound for it. That being said, there are really only 2 obvious placements. 1 is in front of the wall with the electrical panel, the other is in front of the wall that has the insulation in it?

For the treatment, I actually have vicoustics thats gonna be providing me with the treatment but im not sure when that will ready and shipped. They also need the final specs of the room before they can get to work on the treatment. In the mean time I was gonna use the panels that I already have.

And finally my budget. Well at this point in the project I cant say have much to work with anymore. I would say around $1000-$2000 =/.

Thank you so much for your reply and in depth answer man, I cant tell you how much I appreciate the help!
plisken
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Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:15 am
Location: Burbank,CA USA
Contact:

Re: Making my new studio in Burbank

Post by plisken »

I fixed the picture size, I think it falls in line with what I have seen else where on the forum now. One thing I wasn't sure if I should mention now was I am also going to be building a vocal booth. But in this case there really isn't anything much built yet for where I plan to put it. Seeing as how I started off on the wrong foot with this production room, I wanna make sure I don't do the same mistake with the vocal booth.
Soundman2020
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Re: Making my new studio in Burbank

Post by Soundman2020 »

is optimal placement for my desk and monitors, etc. I would like to have a spot for some guitar amps, keyboards and a couch too. But most important is placement of the desk and monitors. In this regard I actually am not sure at all where would be best =/.
For that room, the speakers should go on stands up against the front wall (the short wall, opposite the door). They should each be 34" from the side walls (and therefore will be 58" apart), and they should be set up at a height of 48". All of the above measurements refer to the acoustic axis of the speaker, and NOT to the sides, top or bottom of the cabinet. They would need to be 4" away from the front wall, to leave space for the 4" panel of OC-703 that you'll need in there, between the speaker and the wall.

However, the room is too long. There are many combinations of room dimensions that help to produce good acoustic response (often referred to as "room ratios"), but yours is pretty bad. Many years ago, the smart acoustic engineers at the BBC came up with a set of three equations regarding room ratios, and a room must meet all three of them to be acceptable as a critical listening room. Your room fails two of those three. Firstly because the room is too long, and secondly because the width and height are almost identical (10.5 x 11). You can solve the height issue (to a certain extent) by hanging hard-backed angled clouds, but the only real way to solve the length issue is to build a wall across one end of the room. It could be either the front of the room, or the back (where the door is). Probably the back makes more sense.

You need to cut the length down to about 14'6", so you would need to build a wall about 2'6" away from the current rear wall. Or you could build speaker soffits at the front, and build that rear wall only about 18" in. It would probably be possible do design a soffit setup to fit around your electrical panel.

Your ceiling clouds would need to be hung so that the are centered at about 9' above the floor, and angled at about 10°. They would need to be large, and heavily hard-backed.

In addition to the cloud, yes, you could fill the existing ceiling joists with 6" of fiberglass insulation (30kg/m3 density), with a layer of thin plastic underneath it to prevent fibers from filtering down all over your gear and instruments, as time passes.

If you did all of the above, then the mix position (your ears) would need to be 65" from the front wall, so set up your chair to achieve that, then set up the desk at a comfortable location in front of the chair.

The actual treatment of the room depends on which of the above plans you follow, but you'd need around 350 to 400 sabins of absorption, in total. You'd have to subtract the amount provided by the clouds to come up with the amount that you'd still need to have in the bass traps, first reflection panels, and other panels.
I should mention I do have a bunch of bass traps and treatment already for the room, something like 16 panels.
If you describe what you have, what they are made of (materials) and their dimensions, then I could see if any would be useful, and in what locations they could be used to most effect.


- Stuart -
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