Softaire HVAC Diffusers?

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DanCostello
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:07 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Softaire HVAC Diffusers?

Post by DanCostello »

Hey all,

We've had some long-running hvac issues with our office, trying to strike a balance between SPL and cooling ability. We've had the system running at 1100CFM for a while, which just isn't cutting it, so we had to bump it back up to about 1600, which makes a noticeable difference in the SPL of the airflow through the registers.

These are the registers we currently use:
Image

I found out about another studio that replaced their traditional registers with Softaire diffusers, and at least according to the literature, they claim to reduce the vent noise by about 10dB @ 1500CFM. I was wondering if any of you had used them and had any opinions on them.

http://www.softairediffusers.com/whichModel.asp

Image

Thanks,
-Dan.
Soundman2020
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Re: Softaire HVAC Diffusers?

Post by Soundman2020 »

so we had to bump it back up to about 1600, which makes a noticeable difference in the SPL of the airflow through the registers.
Then the entire system is incorrectly designed. The ducts and registers are too small and too few.
I found out about another studio that replaced their traditional registers with Softaire diffusers,
The problem is only partly the registers: the major problem is the ducts themselves. Air makes a noise simply from moving. The faster it moves, the more noise it makes, and the curve is exponential, not linear. In other words, increasing the flow rate by 50% does not increase the noise by 50%, but in fact by a lot more. For a studio, the system should be designed so that when it is running at maximum capacity, the air velocity at the registers and in the ducts for several feet behind the registers, is not more than 300 FPS. If it is higher than that, you WILL get air noise, regardless of what register you use.

You might find these interesting:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ducts ... _1405.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/accou ... -d_70.html

they claim to reduce the vent noise by about 10dB
Misleading claim: 10 dB as compared to what? Measured how? At what frequency? What air flow velocity? That's like the typical meaningless claims for toothpaste, soap, detergent, etc: "Scientific studies prove that our product is 67% cleaner!". Meaningless.

From the link you gave: "At 1,500 FPM the NC value was 33". Not much use when the goal for a studio is NC-20 or lower!

"claim to reduce the vent noise by about 10dB @ 1500CFM." that's not what they say! They don't talk about flow rate anywhere: only flow velocity. Did you have another source where it mentions that 1500 CFM flow rate number? Actually, talking about flow rate without also knowing either the flow velocity or the duct diameter, is not useful for figuring the noise levels. Noise comes from flow velocity, not flow rate. Are you sure you are not confusing the two? They are very, very different things...

Even if those devices do reduce the noise considerably (which is doubtful, given that the open area seems rather low...), then issue is still the same: how fast is air coming out of the register? If the speed is higher than 300 fps, then there will be noise. the only way to fix that is to modify the HVAC system with correctly designed ducts for the flow rate, to get the speed low enough. You might also need silencers, if there is fast-moving air upstream of the final duct, such as in a nearby plenum.

Was this system installed recently? Do you still have legal recourse? Can you stop payments? Is it under warranty? Are there written specs about the guaranteed noise level / performance? reputable, responsible HVAC contractor? If so, it can probably be fixed at little to no cost for you. If not, then it's going to cost you some money to get it done.

The good news is that it probably can be fixed.


- Stuart -
DanCostello
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:07 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Softaire HVAC Diffusers?

Post by DanCostello »

Soundman2020 wrote:
so we had to bump it back up to about 1600, which makes a noticeable difference in the SPL of the airflow through the registers.
Then the entire system is incorrectly designed.
Oh, I'm well aware of that. The noise is only one issue among many involving the hvac system in this building and I couldn't even argue with a straight face that it's the most significant or the most crucial issue. This is part of a larger system covering an office building of about 200 people, and the impact of its problems extend well outside the audio department and really fixing it correctly is way, way, way above my pay grade. So, I'm looking for band-aids that I can implement with the limited political and financial capital I have available.
they claim to reduce the vent noise by about 10dB
Misleading claim: 10 dB as compared to what? Measured how? At what frequency? What air flow velocity? That's like the typical meaningless claims for toothpaste, soap, detergent, etc: "Scientific studies prove that our product is 67% cleaner!". Meaningless.

From the link you gave: "At 1,500 FPM the NC value was 33". Not much use when the goal for a studio is NC-20 or lower!

"claim to reduce the vent noise by about 10dB @ 1500CFM." that's not what they say! They don't talk about flow rate anywhere: only flow velocity. Did you have another source where it mentions that 1500 CFM flow rate number? Actually, talking about flow rate without also knowing either the flow velocity or the duct diameter, is not useful for figuring the noise levels. Noise comes from flow velocity, not flow rate. Are you sure you are not confusing the two? They are very, very different things...
Ah, then it appears I misinterpreted the specifications. I did conflate FPM and CFM.
Even if those devices do reduce the noise considerably (which is doubtful, given that the open area seems rather low...),
That is what made me skeptical...
then issue is still the same: how fast is air coming out of the register? If the speed is higher than 300 fps, then there will be noise.
300 fps or 300 fpm? 300 fps is 204 mph. :P

Doing a little math: with six registers, each with an 8" neck and a total max airflow of 1600CFM, it would seem that our max airspeed at a particular register is about 764 fpm, or about 2.5x your limit. This assumes that the dampers for each register are all set wide-open, which isn't the case, so some wind up getting more than this while others probably get less.

Previously, the system was set to a max of 1100 CFM and was noticeably quieter, but it wasn't enough to keep up with our computer equipment and I was sweating my balls off.
Was this system installed recently? Do you still have legal recourse? Can you stop payments? Is it under warranty? Are there written specs about the guaranteed noise level / performance? reputable, responsible HVAC contractor? If so, it can probably be fixed at little to no cost for you. If not, then it's going to cost you some money to get it done.
Some of these questions I'm not able to answer; some I'm not allowed to. I think it best that I operate under the assumption that the system isn't going to change or be upgraded in a significant way in the near future.

But for the sake of argument:

The way our office is set up is that there's one thermostat and blower unit (which I can't remember what it's called) shared among 6 rooms. 1 of the rooms is a vocal booth about 7'x9'. The other 5 rooms are editing suites, about 8'x12'. Each room has 1 register with an 8" neck connected via flexible duct to the primary duct trunk for this area. I believe (but can't double check because I don't have a flashlight) that the trunk duct for this area is metal and runs through the plenum between the offices.

In this situation (assuming my understanding of the system is correct), do you think merely adding extra registers could be a potential solution - perhaps not a perfect solution, but a better-than-nothing-and-not-too-expensive solution? In my mind, we could splice an extra register and extra section of flexduct onto the main trunk, so that each room would have two registers instead of one. That would effectively halve the airspeed at the register, would it not? And it would behoove us to add the new ductwork as far upstream as possible, right? - say, by taking an extra feed off the main trunk rather than putting a y-junction at the existing register.

Thanks,
-Dan.
Soundman2020
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Re: Softaire HVAC Diffusers?

Post by Soundman2020 »

So, I'm looking for band-aids that I can implement with the limited political and financial capital I have available.
You have your work cut out for you! :shock: :) Trying to treat cardiac arrest with band-aids is a tough job... :)

That's my "humorous" attempt to point out that it's not really feasible to fix the problem, without actually fixing the problem. There are some things you could do, yes, but the results probably won't be what you are looking for, and might backfire on your "political and financial" position: If you do start replacing stuff, even if you only spend small amounts on it, and it basically doesn't make much difference, that might not be a good thing for you...

Not trying to discourage you... just pointing out reality.
300 fps or 300 fpm? 300 fps is 204 mph
:oops: Here I am doing the same thing you did! FPS/CFM FPM/FPS! Man, I gotta stop typing so fast, and double-check my own posts... Yep, you are right: that should be 300 FPM, not FPS. A gentle breeze, not a screaming hurricane...
it would seem that our max airspeed at a particular register is about 764 fpm, or about 2.5x your limit.
Yup. Very true. Which explains the noise problem that you are having, to a certain extent.
This assumes that the dampers for each register are all set wide-open, which isn't the case, so some wind up getting more than this while others probably get less.
Partially closed dampers will add even more noise: they create turbulent air flow, which is noisy, and when that turbulent flow strikes the vanes in the register, it creates even more noise. Dampers should be located a long way upstream from the registers.
In this situation (assuming my understanding of the system is correct), do you think merely adding extra registers could be a potential solution -
To a certain extent, it would help. If you put in three times the number of registers, that would reduce the flow velocity to more reasonable levels while still providing good volume, and good cooling. Bot don't forget that you need three times as many return registers, as well: it's not just the supply side that has a problem. The air coming into the room has to get back out, so the total area of the return registers needs to be at least as much as the total area of the supply registers.

Plus, you'll need to have up-stream dampers to be able to adjust the flow rate to each room individually, and you'll need to do some manual balancing of those, so that each of the registers in a given room is supplying about the same amount, and the total between them is correct for that room (room volume x 6 room changes per hour = total volume of air you need to move though the room in one hour. Divide by 60 is the correct number of CFM. Divide that by the total open area of all the supply registers gives you FPM, and that result should be less than 300, preferably around 100).
perhaps not a perfect solution, but a better-than-nothing-and-not-too-expensive solution?
It would make a difference to the actual air movement noise, yes, since the air would hen be coming in slow enough to not cause audible hiss. But there might still be turbulence that still causes problems when it hits the registers,even at slow speeds, and there might be noise in the air stream itself, coming from further upstream. For example, the air is moving fast in the plenum (hurricane) so it is noisy in there. Even if you slow down the airflow, the noise is still there. That's why you need silencer boxes, or at least long runs of duct that has a couple of 90° curves in it. But you have to be careful doing that with flexduct, since curving it too tight into an actual bend will restrict the airflow, and thus cause an increase in velocity again, and turbulence... and you are back to square one.

The whole system has to be done carefully, thoughtfully, with an understanding of what is happening, in order to have any appreciable overall effect.

And that's without getting to the issue of this being a studio, and the loud sounds in the control room / tracking rooms finding their way through the HVAC ducting, into the vocal booth... and vice versa...

Doing studio HVAC right is not as easy as it looks.... and I guess the guy who did yours found that out along the way! :)
In my mind, we could splice an extra register and extra section of flexduct onto the main trunk, so that each room would have two registers instead of one.
Not enough. Your own math showed that you are at least 2.5 times over the limit, so only doing 2x is not going to get you there: you'd still be over the limit. You'd need three times as many registers. Both supply and return.
And it would behoove us to add the new ductwork as far upstream as possible, right? - say, by taking an extra feed off the main trunk rather than putting a y-junction at the existing register.
Exactly. Many many feet of duct, and a couple of curves along the way (but not bends) and the final curve should be at least 5x the diameter of the duct away from the register. So for 8" duct, the last curve needs to end at least 40" upstream.

It's worth a try, I suppose, but I'm not convinced that you'll be entirely happy with the result...

- Stuart -
DanCostello
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:07 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Softaire HVAC Diffusers?

Post by DanCostello »

So, maybe I'll get a little luckier than I'd hoped. The largest of the three compressors on the roof died, causing the building to be unbearably hot and muggy. The fact that it's going to be weeks before they can get a new one craned onto the roof was enough to motivate the maintenance guys to discover that they can recharge the coolant and retune the system to allow it to cool the whole building despite being only partly functional. Now, it's freezing in our rooms despite being 90F+ outside, which means that there's some wiggle room for us to turn down the airflow rate.

Also, we're hiring a new person and there aren't any "soundproof" (lulz) rooms available for him/her, so it's possible they'll upgrade one of the existing rooms. And if they do that, maybe I can get them to fix some problems with our other rooms.

We'll see. *fingers crossed*

-Dan.
Soundman2020
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Re: Softaire HVAC Diffusers?

Post by Soundman2020 »

That's pretty good news all around, Dan! Hope something permanently good comes of it, in the end.


- Stuart -
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