Yet Another Ground Up Backyard Studio (drums)

[Drumoverdubs]

Screen Shot 2016-06-27 at 11.06.20 AM.png

HI,
I have been reading the forums for months along with Rod's Book. This is my first post.
I am building a new room in my back yard from the ground up. We are in the drawing and structural engineering phase.
The purpose is to have drum recording room along with enough room to track with 3-4 people.
Drums/gear needs to have easy access to loading out to the north of the proposed building for gigs etc. This is stored in the vestibule on the North east side of the building. I was looking to have a lock out and mud room to keep the dirt from the road cases from coming in the main room.

The house is south of the 2 structures where bathrooms and the kitchen are. Having an easy walk is important.

I am loud. 110 db. Drums etc. Would like to play later into the night so isolation is important.

The smaller structure (Current Control Room) would be wired with cameras and audio. It would serve as Storage and a small iso room when tracking a larger session.


The dimensions are 23x40 outside shell. Inside would be about by 20.5 ftThere is currently a 12x16 building to the south of the proposed building which has served as my control room for years. I cannot attach the 2 buildings because of city code issues. The problems are that the room has poor AC and a high noise floor. It was never built out correctly but it does live on it's own slab.

The proposed construction is Slab on Grade with 2x6 or 2x8 for the outside. I was thinking double sheathing and hardie cement board for the siding. 18ft walls. Truss roof. then 2 in space and 2x6 inner walls with double 5/8 and green glue or Sound Damp 2 by Kinetics. (not sure which one to use yet).

Ceiling would be splayed hung from the rafters with spring clips or supported by joists across the inner 2x6 wall construction.

The proposed building has a control room that averages 12 front wall, 14 sides, 15.5 back wall and average height is 11 ft. the ceiling would be splayed 9-12ft.

The Live room would have 15-17 foot ceilings. about 20x20 with a vestibule. The 20x20 is not my first choice but what is left after the control room. The vestibule will stand about 11ft high so the ceilings will go up about 4 feet atop the vestibule for kit storage.
Also there will be storage above the control room. About 4 ft. or so.

Floors will be wood on some kind of backing on slab.

Cable runs will be routed in pvc under the main wall through the slab.

Electrical will be run in conduit on the drywall.

Trouble spots:
AC I am looking to use Mitsubishi Mini splits with fresh air venting.
Doors The double sliding laminated glass doors are about $5200 from soundproofwindow.com I'm looking for a 63 or so stc with -30db in the bass frequencies.
The double door on the south side of the building is a difficult situation. I have a door mill who will help me laminate a couple fire doors together and build a frame. Then a heavy exterior door. (What type of exterior doors??)

Budget. Would like to keep to $100,000. The Cement and dig alone are about 21k, Permit 7.5k, Admin (architect, design, structural engineer etc) 4.5k
so I have about 68k for the stick build, AC and build out which I know is tight. Especially if I was to hire a contractor.

Questions:
Can I make a mitsubishi minisplit work with fresh air venting?
Am I screwing myself with the double doorway on the south end of the building.
Should the outside wall be 2x6 or 2x8? Metal studs?
Greenglue vs Sound Damp 2?
Will the Wall between the CR and Live Room be enough? I was looking for 63stc.
Do I need to isolate the slabs for the 2 rooms?
Is the Live room a little too square or will the splayed walls help?

Ok....Rip me a new one!
Brian

[Soundman2020]

Hi there Brian, and Welcome to the forum!

First question: Is this a commercial facility, or just a private studio for your own use? The reason for the question: if it is commercial (where you will be charging people to use the studio), then it would be subject to the ADA act, and you'd need to include special features for wheel-chair access and suchlike.

Drums/gear needs to have easy access to loading out to the north of the proposed building

I'm assuming North is toward the top of the page?

The house is south of the 2 structures where bathrooms and the kitchen are.

If this is a commercial facility, you might want to re-think that: you really don't want unknown people wandering around inside your house, using your toilet and kitchen unsupervised... Not recommendable! Much better to put in a small bathroom and kitchenette inside the studio building itself.

I am loud. 110 db. Drums etc. Would like to play later into the night so isolation is important.

OK, so that's how loud you are, but how quiet do you need to be? What does your local noise regulation say about that? Also, what about loud noises outside that could trash a recording session? Nearby roads, railways, animals, perhaps aircraft flying over, sirens, thunder, wind, rain, hail. Are you accounting for all of those in your isolation needs?

The dimensions are 23x40 outside shell.

So 920 square feet. A very nice size. You could easily get in a good control room, live room, drum booth, iso booth, bathroom, kitchenette, and lobby. I have done a few designs for studios in a bit less space, with all of that, and more. If you look around, you'll see that John has done many designs in spaces around that size. If you use the space carefully, you can fit in a lot.

The proposed construction is Slab on Grade with 2x6 or 2x8 for the outside.

Why so big? Lumber is expensive, so you could save a bit of money by using ordinary 2x4s for your outer-leaf walls.

I was thinking double sheathing and hardie cement board for the siding.

Excellent. Use 5/8" OSB for both layers of sheathing, and stagger the joints between layers.

and 2x6 inner walls

Same as above: Lumber ain't cheap. Save money where you can, and just do standard framing with plain old ordinary 2x4s for your inner-leaf walls as well: You will need larger dimensions for the ceilings and roof, for sure, but the walls can be 2x4. It's just a single-story structure, so there's no problem with using 2x4s for that.

with double 5/8 and green glue or Sound Damp 2 by Kinetics. (not sure which one to use yet).

Green Glue. I saw your other thread about the Sound Damp, but there's no useful acoustic data there at all. No data = unknown performance = not a useful product.

Ceiling would be splayed

Which ceiling? You will have several of them: one in each room...

hung from the rafters with spring clips

Not if you want high levels of isolation!

supported by joists across the inner 2x6 wall construction.

Correct. Except that e walls can be 2x4, not 2x6.

The proposed building has a control room that...

What design philosophy are you using for that room? It isn't obvious at all from what you are showing there...:

- The room is not symmetrical
- The wall angels are not useful, and are wasting space
- The speakers are in the wrong location
- The mix position appears to be in the middle of the room, which is about the worst possible position.
- There is no provision for bass trapping
- The client couch is up against the rear wall, where there will be terrible bass build-up
- There are no sight lines at all from the CR to the LR
- There is no independent door for the CR, so if someone in the CR needs to go outside for whatever reason, they will have to interrupt the session in the LR to do so, as the only exit path from the CR is through the LR
...
- The inner-leaf walls of the CR and LR are directly joined, implying that there will be major flanking paths, and thus poor isolation between the rooms.
- The vestibule is not isolated.

Those are the big issues that stick out at first glance. There are other smaller ones too, but those are the biggies that are "deal breakers".

The 20x20 is not my first choice but what is left after the control room.

The re-arrange the rooms in a better layout that does not force you to have a square LR!

Also there will be storage above the control room. About 4 ft. or so.

Nope. Not if you want high levels of isolation there wont! And in any event, that space would be much better used for the HVAC ducting and silencer boxes.

Floors will be wood on some kind of backing on slab.

Cable runs will be routed in pvc under the main wall through the slab.

Electrical will be run in conduit on the drywall.

Better to use a surface-mounted structured raceway system, such as these:

http://www.calcentron.com/Pages/fram-tr ... aceway.htm
http://www.legrand.us/wire-cable-manage ... eways.aspx

Completely avoids penetrations of your drywall, which is what kills your isolation...

Doors The double sliding laminated glass doors are about $5200 from soundproofwindow.com

Consider switching to site-built doors that are not sliding glass. You can build very good isolation doors on-site for MUCH less money, and they can have glass in them if you want.

I'm looking for a 63 or so stc

Forget STC. It's not a useful rating system for studios. It does not consider the bottom two and a half octaves of the musical spectrum, nor the top two and a half octaves. When they take the measurements to determine the STC rating, they simply do not bother measuring anything in the low end at all. NOTHING! STC tells you zilch about how good a wall, door or window is for isolating loud music. Use only TL for that.

I'm looking for a 63 or so stc with -30db in the bass frequencies.

STC does not measure in decibels. STC has no units. It is a single-number curve-fitting algorithm that is only distantly related to decibels. There is no way of knowing if a any given wall will give you 30 db TL in the lows just be looking at the STC rating. I can build you two walls, both rated at STC 45, where one of them is really terrible at blocking low frequencies, and the other one is fantastic...

Budget. Would like to keep to $100,000. The Cement and dig alone are about 21k, Permit 7.5k, Admin (architect, design, structural engineer etc) 4.5k. so I have about 68k for the stick build, AC and build out which I know is tight. Especially if I was to hire a contractor.

It's tight, but probably do-able. Your slab costs do seem a bit high, though. Why so much? What are the specs for your slab?

Can I make a mitsubishi minisplit work with fresh air venting?

Yes, but you'll need three mini-splits for that facility: one for each room. It might be better (less expensive) to go with a single ducted AHU.

Am I screwing myself with the double doorway on the south end of the building.

Quite possibly! Why do you need that? On a tight budget, you need to save wherever you can, and that's one place where you can save...

Should the outside wall be 2x6 or 2x8? Metal studs?

2x4 is fine, just like for normal house / shop / office construction. Tight budget = save money.

Greenglue vs Sound Damp 2?

Green Glue, but on a tight budget you might be able to skip that completely with careful design.

Will the Wall between the CR and Live Room be enough? I was looking for 63stc.

No, because you are not isolating correctly, and also because of the comments above on STC. A rating of STC-63 does NOT mean that you will get 63 dB of isolation. Far from it.

Your overall isolation plan is flawed: you are not building each room as a separate fully-decoupled singe-leaf structure. that needs to be fixed.

Do I need to isolate the slabs for the 2 rooms?

Not unless you have a need for extreme isolation. How many decibels of isolation do you need?

Is the Live room a little too square or will the splayed walls help?

1) Yes. 2) Maybe.

Ok....Rip me a new one!

Done!

If you are going to sink a hundred grand into this place, you might want to consider hiring a studio designer to to the design for you, rather making all the newbie mistakes yourself and then paying for them, big time. I'd suggest that you contact John Sayers himself by PM, and ask him to quote for designing your place. His fee will pay dividends many times over in the money you save by NOT making rooky mistakes in the design, and also by making the most efficient use of space and materials.

That would be the most important advice I can give you here: Hire an experienced studio designer to save you money, time, complexity, and heartache... and John is the best in the business. PM him.

- Stuart -

[Drumoverdubs]

THANKS STUART!
I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

Hi there Brian, and Welcome to the forum!

First question: Is this a commercial facility, or just a private studio for your own use? The reason for the question: if it is commercial (where you will be charging people to use the studio), then it would be subject to the ADA act, and you'd need to include special features for wheel-chair access and suchlike.

PRIVATE FACILITY NO ADA. MOSTLY INTERNET WORK FROM BEHIND MY HOME.

Quote:
Drums/gear needs to have easy access to loading out to the north of the proposed building
I'm assuming North is toward the top of the page?

YES NORTH IS TOWARD THE TOP OF THE PAGE. CARS WILL BE PARKED THERE.

Quote:

The house is south of the 2 structures where bathrooms and the kitchen are.

If this is a commercial facility, you might want to re-think that: you really don't want unknown people wandering around inside your house, using your toilet and kitchen unsupervised... Not recommendable! Much better to put in a small bathroom and kitchenette inside the studio building itself.

THE MAJORITY OF MY WORK IS INTERNET SO NOT A COMMERCIAL FACILITY. I WANT THE LARGEST ROOMS POSSIBLE. I WOULD LIKE TO REHEARSE AND RECORD IN HERE. I WANT THE LR TO HAVE LOTS OF ROOM TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE IT UP.

Quote:

I am loud. 110 db. Drums etc. Would like to play later into the night so isolation is important.

OK, so that's how loud you are, but how quiet do you need to be? What does your local noise regulation say about that? Also, what about loud noises outside that could trash a recording session? Nearby roads, railways, animals, perhaps aircraft flying over, sirens, thunder, wind, rain, hail. Are you accounting for all of those in your isolation needs?

I WOULD LIKE 63DB OF ISOLATION. I CAN'T FIND THE TOWN ORDINANCE. MADE A PHONE CALL. IN GENERAL IT IS A SMALL QUIET TOWN WHICH HAS BEEN NOISY OF LATE DUE TO RECONSTRUCTION FROM A FLOOD IN 2013

Quote:

The dimensions are 23x40 outside shell.

So 920 square feet. A very nice size. You could easily get in a good control room, live room, drum booth, iso booth, bathroom, kitchenette, and lobby. I have done a few designs for studios in a bit less space, with all of that, and more. If you look around, you'll see that John has done many designs in spaces around that size. If you use the space carefully, you can fit in a lot.

I WANT THE LARGEST DRUM TRACKING ROOM POSSIBLE. CURRENT ROOM IN THE HOUSE IS 29X16 WITH SLOPED CEILING 8-12 FT. WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A SPACIOUS ROOM TO PLAY/RECORD/REH NO BATHROOMS, KITCHEN ETC. WATER HOOKUPS ARE 18K SO NO WATER LOUNGE ETC...

Quote:

The proposed construction is Slab on Grade with 2x6 or 2x8 for the outside.

Why so big? Lumber is expensive, so you could save a bit of money by using ordinary 2x4s for your outer-leaf walls.

THESE ARE 18FT WALLS. THE STRUCTURAL ENGINEER SAID 2X6'S WOULD HAVE TO BE DOUBLED UP. WOULD THAT INCREASE THE NOISE TRANSFER IN THE OUTSIDE LEAF OF THE WALL?

Quote:

I was thinking double sheathing and hardie cement board for the siding.

Excellent. Use 5/8" OSB for both layers of sheathing, and stagger the joints between layers.

GREAT!

Quote:

and 2x6 inner walls

Same as above: Lumber ain't cheap. Save money where you can, and just do standard framing with plain old ordinary 2x4s for your inner-leaf walls as well: You will need larger dimensions for the ceilings and roof, for sure, but the walls can be 2x4. It's just a single-story structure, so there's no problem with using 2x4s for that.

THIS COULD SAVE ME SOME SPACE! BUT DOES RIGIDITY HAVE SOMETHING SOUND TRANSMISSION THROUGH THE WALL? AGAIN INNER WALLS ARE 16 FT OR SO.

Quote:

with double 5/8 and green glue or Sound Damp 2 by Kinetics. (not sure which one to use yet).

Green Glue. I saw your other thread about the Sound Damp, but there's no useful acoustic data there at all. No data = unknown performance = not a useful product.

I WAS TURNED ON TO THIS PRODUCT FROM A MASTERING HOUSE THAT USED IT IN THEIR NEW ROOM. I BOUGHT THEIR EXTRA. I CAN STILL USE GG THOUGH.

Quote:

Ceiling would be splayed

Which ceiling? You will have several of them: one in each room...

THE CEILING IN THE CONTROL ROOM WAS TO BE SPLAYED FROM 9-12 FT FROM NORTH TO SOUTH. LIVE ROOM 15-17FT FROM SOUTH TO NORTH

Quote:

hung from the rafters with spring clips

Not if you want high levels of isolation!

OK SO THE INNER WALL STRUCTURE SHOULD HOLD THE CEILING. CAN ONE WALL BE TALLER THAN THE OTHER TO SPLAY THE CEILING?

Quote:

supported by joists across the inner 2x6 wall construction.

Correct. Except that e walls can be 2x4, not 2x6.

Quote:

The proposed building has a control room that...

What design philosophy are you using for that room? It isn't obvious at all from what you are showing there...:

MY DRAWINGS ARE NOT EXACT BUT THE IDEA WAS RFZ WITH AVERAGE ROOM DIM BEING 19x14x10 or 1:1.4:1.9 http://amroc.andymel.eu/?l=19&w=14&h=10&ft=true&r60=0.6

- The room is not symmetrical

THE ROOM IS SHOULD BE SYMMETRICAL WITH THE ANGLES ETC.

- The wall angels are not useful, and are wasting space.

IF I MADE A RECTANGLE WHAT WITH WOULD YOU SUGGEST?

- The speakers are in the wrong location

THAT IS MY ERROR IN THE DRAWING. SORRY

- The mix position appears to be in the middle of the room, which is about the worst possible position.

THAT IS MY ERROR IN THE DRAWING

- There is no provision for bass trapping

BASS TRAPPING WOULD BE IN THE REAR CORNERS ETC. I HAVE SOMEONE WHO IS HELPING ME WITH THAT

- The client couch is up against the rear wall, where there will be terrible bass build-up

I WAS LOOKING FOR A LARGER CONTROL ROOM TO HAVE SOME PERFORMERS ACTUALLY PLAY IN WHILE THE DRUMS WERE IN THE OTHER ROOM. THERE WOULD BE TREATMENT DIFFUSION ETC.

- There are no sight lines at all from the CR to the LR

THE PLAN WAS TO SCOOT BACK A BIT AND LOOK OVER OUT THE SLIDING GLASS. SINCE I AM USUALLY THE DRUMMER AND THE ENGINEER I WOULD BE CHANGING SEATS FREQUENTLY.

- There is no independent door for the CR, so if someone in the CR needs to go outside for whatever reason, they will have to interrupt the session in the LR to do so, as the only exit path from the CR is through the LR

YOU ARE CORRECT. I WAS TRYING TO KILL 2 BIRDS WITH ONE STONE AND ONLY HAVE ONE ENTRANCE AND STUDIO WINDOW COMBINE.
...

- The inner-leaf walls of the CR and LR are directly joined, implying that there will be major flanking paths, and thus poor isolation between the rooms.

I MADE A MISTAKE ON THE DRAWING AND HAVE SINCE DELETED THAT CONNECTION.

- The vestibule is not isolated.

?? DO I NEED AN INTERIOR DOOR? SORRY CONFUSED HERE

Those are the big issues that stick out at first glance. There are other smaller ones too, but those are the biggies that are "deal breakers".

Quote:

The 20x20 is not my first choice but what is left after the control room.

The re-arrange the rooms in a better layout that does not force you to have a square LR!

OK, I AM OPEN

Quote:

Also there will be storage above the control room. About 4 ft. or so.

Nope. Not if you want high levels of isolation there wont! And in any event, that space would be much better used for the HVAC ducting and silencer boxes.

OK. YOU HAVE MY ATTENTION

Quote:
Floors will be wood on some kind of backing on slab. GREAT

Quote:
Cable runs will be routed in pvc under the main wall through the slab. GREAT

Quote:

Electrical will be run in conduit on the drywall.

Better to use a surface-mounted structured raceway system, such as these:

http://www.calcentron.com/Pages/fram-tr ... aceway.htm
http://www.legrand.us/wire-cable-manage ... eways.aspx

Completely avoids penetrations of your drywall, which is what kills your isolation...

THANK YOU!!!

Quote:

Doors The double sliding laminated glass doors are about $5200 from soundproofwindow.com

Consider switching to site-built doors that are not sliding glass. You can build very good isolation doors on-site for MUCH less money, and they can have glass in them if you want.

SO YOU ARE SUGGESTING I RE ARRANGE THE ROOMS AND HAVE A CONVENTIONAL STUDIO WINDOW? $$? THEN A DOOR AS WELL WITH OR WITHOUT AN AIR LOCK?

Quote:

I'm looking for a 63 or so stc

Forget STC. It's not a useful rating system for studios. It does not consider the bottom two and a half octaves of the musical spectrum, nor the top two and a half octaves. When they take the measurements to determine the STC rating, they simply do not bother measuring anything in the low end at all. NOTHING! STC tells you zilch about how good a wall, door or window is for isolating loud music. Use only TL for that.

THANK YOU....I NEED TO STOP DRUMS FROM COMING THROUGH THE WALL. ANY IDEA HOW MUCH I NEED?

Quote:

I'm looking for a 63 or so stc with -30db in the bass frequencies.

STC does not measure in decibels. STC has no units. It is a single-number curve-fitting algorithm that is only distantly related to decibels. There is no way of knowing if a any given wall will give you 30 db TL in the lows just be looking at the STC rating. I can build you two walls, both rated at STC 45, where one of them is really terrible at blocking low frequencies, and the other one is fantastic...

Quote:

Budget. Would like to keep to $100,000. The Cement and dig alone are about 21k, Permit 7.5k, Admin (architect, design, structural engineer etc) 4.5k. so I have about 68k for the stick build, AC and build out which I know is tight. Especially if I was to hire a contractor.

It's tight, but probably do-able. Your slab costs do seem a bit high, though. Why so much? What are the specs for your slab?

DIG QUOTE IS $5-7500 FOOTER footer $3000, 4FT WALLS $8400, FLOOR $4500 TOTAL =$18,900

Quote:

Can I make a mitsubishi minisplit work with fresh air venting?

Yes, but you'll need three mini-splits for that facility: one for each room. It might be better (less expensive) to go with a single ducted AHU.

I MIGHT BE ABLE TO USE 2 AND FOR THE NEW STRUCTURE AND DO THE OLD CR IN PHASE 2 OF THE PROJECT.

Quote:

Am I screwing myself with the double doorway on the south end of the building.

Quite possibly! Why do you need that? On a tight budget, you need to save wherever you can, and that's one place where you can save...

IN THIS CASE I WOULD MOVE THE VESTIBULE TO THE SOUTHEAST SIDE OF THE BUILDING AND HAVE A RAMP TO ROLL CASES OUT TO THE PARKING AREA. I HAVE BEEN DEBATING OVER THIS AS THE RAMP WOULD BE ABOUT $1500 OR SO...AS I WALK TO AND FROM THE HOUSE QUITE OFTEN I WAS LOOKING AT HAVING A DOOR ON THE SOUTH END OF THE BUILDING.

Quote:

Should the outside wall be 2x6 or 2x8? Metal studs?

2x4 is fine, just like for normal house / shop / office construction. Tight budget = save money.

ANY ADVISE ON METAL STUDS FOR THE 18FT WALLS?

Quote:

Greenglue vs Sound Damp 2?

Green Glue, but on a tight budget you might be able to skip that completely with careful design.

I HAVE THE COPYS OF THE TESTING OF WHAT THE MANUFACTURER CLAIMS. A WELL KNOW STUDIO DESIGNER JUST USED IT FOR A NEW MASTERING ROOM IN BOULDER. THE CLIENT SEEMED HAPPY. I BOUGHT HIS REMAINING AMOUNT FOR CHEAP. I DON'T HAVE TO USE IT.

Quote:

Will the Wall between the CR and Live Room be enough? I was looking for 63stc.

No, because you are not isolating correctly, and also because of the comments above on STC. A rating of STC-63 does NOT mean that you will get 63 dB of isolation. Far from it.

Your overall isolation plan is flawed: you are not building each room as a separate fully-decoupled singe-leaf structure. that needs to be fixed.

THANK YOU! WILL REVISE

Quote:

Do I need to isolate the slabs for the 2 rooms?

Not unless you have a need for extreme isolation. How many decibels of isolation do you need?

Quote:

Is the Live room a little too square or will the splayed walls help?

1) Yes. 2) Maybe.

Quote:

Ok....Rip me a new one!

Done!

THANK YOU!!!

If you are going to sink a hundred grand into this place, you might want to consider hiring a studio designer to to the design for you, rather making all the newbie mistakes yourself and then paying for them, big time. I'd suggest that you contact John Sayers himself by PM, and ask him to quote for designing your place. His fee will pay dividends many times over in the money you save by NOT making rooky mistakes in the design, and also by making the most efficient use of space and materials.

THANK YOU. WILL FOLLOW UP.

[Soundman2020]

I fixed your previous post by quoting and double-quoting the various bits or text, to make it clearer and easier to follow.

You can do that yourself: To quote text in your reply, just select it with the mouse then hit the "quote" button at the top of the panel where you type in your reply. Makes it easier to follow.

I WOULD LIKE 63DB OF ISOLATION.

I'm curious why you came up with that exact number... Why not 60 dB, or 70 dB?

But anyway, 63 dB is not an easy task. I already mentioned that STC-63 is not the same as 63 dB (not even close!). It's not so hard to get STC-63, but it is hard to get 63 dB of transmission loss. It's not impossible, but it is a tall order. You are setting your goals high. Nothing wrong with that! But I do want to mention that what you are asking for is not a walk in the park...

WATER HOOKUPS ARE 18K SO NO WATER LOUNGE ETC...

OK, got it! Makes sense...

THESE ARE 18FT WALLS. THE STRUCTURAL ENGINEER SAID 2X6'S

Ahhh! OK. Makes sense. I missed the note on the height. Check with your engineer: you might be able to go 24"OC with that, instead of 16"OC. Save a few studs like that.

WOULD THAT INCREASE THE NOISE TRANSFER IN THE OUTSIDE LEAF OF THE WALL?

Nope. Not a problem.

BUT DOES RIGIDITY HAVE SOMETHING SOUND TRANSMISSION THROUGH THE WALL? AGAIN INNER WALLS ARE 16 FT OR SO.

You might not be able to use 2x4's then. You can normally only do 12', or maybe 14' with 2x4s, depending on code.

Yes, rigidity is related to sound transmission through walls, but it's not a simple relationship. Different frequencies do different things to different characteristics. It works more or less like this:

four-regions-of-isoaltion--transmission_loss.gif

So rigidity (stiffness) does have an effect, but only at frequencies below the MSM resonance of the wall. If you tune the wall system properly, then that will be sub-sonic, so not really a problem. For a well-designed isolation wall, it's the tuning that maters, not so much the stiffness. (the above graph is actually for a single leaf wall: for a 2-leaf the entire curve rises faster and slides over the the right a bit, but the regions are basically the same).

THE CEILING IN THE CONTROL ROOM WAS TO BE SPLAYED FROM 9-12 FT FROM NORTH TO SOUTH.

The angle is not large enough to be useful. It needs to be at least 12 degrees to deal with flutter echo, and much more than that to create a proper RFZ. Ditto for the wall angles.

LIVE ROOM 15-17FT FROM SOUTH TO NORTH

Ditto. Not a large enough angle to be useful for flutter echo. I would re-think that.

OK SO THE INNER WALL STRUCTURE SHOULD HOLD THE CEILING. CAN ONE WALL BE TALLER THAN THE OTHER TO SPLAY THE CEILING?

Yes, and yes, but there are caveats in there, especially if you go over about 12'. Normally you'd do a double top plate at 12', then stack another section on top of that. But that's getting ahead of where you are. Framing a tall structure is not as easy as framing a more typical 8' or 10' 2x4 structure.

MY DRAWINGS ARE NOT EXACT BUT THE IDEA WAS RFZ WITH AVERAGE ROOM DIM BEING 19x14x10 or 1:1.4:1.9

Your drawing does not show RFZ at all! RFZ needs much larger angles at the front of the room to re-direct the first reflections around the mix position, well clear of the engineer's head: You can't do that with small angles, nor with absorption. Here's a link to a thread about a studio that I designed for one of my customers:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471

That is a true RFZ-style room. The entire sweet spot is free from first reflections: And you can see the large angles on the front part of the side walls (or the side parts of the front wall, if you prefer that perspective!), as well as on the ceiling cloud. In order to create the RFZ, you need large angles, and you also need soffited speakers (flush mounted). As you can see from the acoustic analysis graphs, when done properly, it works extremely well.

THE ROOM IS SHOULD BE SYMMETRICAL WITH THE ANGLES ETC.

The shell might be symmetrical. but the interior of the room is not. There are "things" that I'm assuming to be racks, cupboards, chairs, gear, or furniture of some type that are upsetting the symmetry. And symmetry is critical for a high-quality control room. Your left ear must be hearing the exact same acoustic signature as your right ear, or else your mixes will be "skewed". In the room I linked to above, there is less than +/- 1dB of difference between the left and right sides of that room, across the entire spectrum, 17Hz to 21 kHz. That's the type of extreme accuracy you can get in a well designed, well built, and well-tuned room. But you can't do it if you have large differences in basic symmetry.

IF I MADE A RECTANGLE WHAT WITH WOULD YOU SUGGEST?

If you made a rectangle, it wouldn't be RFZ either!

In my opinion, RFZ is the best possible design for a room, but it cannot be done with rectangular rooms. The basic premise of RFZ is that there are angled surfaces at the front of the room that force the first reflections away from the head of the engineer, redirecting them into the side and rear walls, where they are absorbed/diffused, before eventually coming back the the engineers ears as a low-level diffuse reverberant field that is at least 20 dB down from the direct sound, and also delayed by at least 20 ms. That's part of the definition of what an RFZ room is, and the way to attain that is to steeply angle the front parts of the side walls enough to do that: The rest of the side walls can be splayed less steeply, or can even be parallel, but the front parts need steep angles. Ditto for the front part of the ceiling: it also needs to be angled steeply, or there needs to be an angled cloud hung below it, hard-backed.

What you show in your diagram is not an RFZ room. The wall angles are way too shallow, and the rear-end treatment is wrong.

THAT IS MY ERROR IN THE DRAWING. SORRY

Not really... for a true RFZ room, the speakers should not even be in the room at all! Rather, they should be flush-mounted in the angled sections of the front wall, which is often referred to as "soffit mounting". Once again, refer to the above linked thread.

BASS TRAPPING WOULD BE IN THE REAR CORNERS ETC. I HAVE SOMEONE WHO IS HELPING ME WITH THAT

That would not be enough for that room. In order to get perfectly neutral acoustics (such as you see in the graphs on that thread above), you need major bass trapping. What you can't see in those photos is the huge amount of bass trapping that went into that room. There are large, deep superchunk-style traps arranged both vertically and horizontally in the walls, as well as several feet of bass trapping above the visible ceiling, acoustic hangers all across the front of the room inside the soffit modules, and membrane traps and poly-cylindrical diffusers on the rear upper and walls, respectively. Your room would be about the same size as that one, so it would need similar trapping. A couple of small things in the rear corners is not going to cut it. Sorry.

I WAS LOOKING FOR A LARGER CONTROL ROOM TO HAVE SOME PERFORMERS ACTUALLY PLAY IN WHILE THE DRUMS WERE IN THE OTHER ROOM. THERE WOULD BE TREATMENT DIFFUSION ETC.

No problem at all with that, but you are missing the point I was making: The client couch is up against the rear wall, where there will be terrible bass build-up. That's a terrible position for the client couch! That's where the producer, client, musicians, etc. will be sitting while they listen to your mix. If the couch is up against the rear wall, which is also untreated, all they will hear is the loud mushy boomy thumpy thuddy mess of the deep bass, totally out of whack with the mids and highs... it will sound awful.

My point is that the couch needs to be several feet forwards from where you show it, well out of the SBIR zone, and with several feet of deep bass trapping on the back wall. Take a look at the smaller photo lower down in that thread above: the client couch is about 9 feet away from the back wall, and even then it took a couple of days of careful tuning to get the response smooth for that position.

THE PLAN WAS TO SCOOT BACK A BIT AND LOOK OVER OUT THE SLIDING GLASS.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just position the glass at a location where you don't have to do that? There's no reason under the sun why you could not do that: you have plenty of wall space, just begging to be used more effectively...

I WAS TRYING TO KILL 2 BIRDS WITH ONE STONE AND ONLY HAVE ONE ENTRANCE AND STUDIO WINDOW COMBINE.

I would really, really suggest that you add a small entrance lobby, where people )including yourself) can hang their jackets, wipe their feet, leave their wet umbrellas, dump any stuff they are carrying such as instrument cases, food, drink, etc. Then have individual doors to the rooms coming off that lobby. Even put an easy chair and a mini-fridge in there, so they can relax and chill out in peace while the session carries on in the actual studio area. It would take up a few square feet, sure, but the utility far outweighs the small amount of "lost" area. Without that, people will be wiping the mud and dirt of their feet and hanging their wet cloths in the Live Room, thus messing up the tuning of the musical instruments and the tone of the condenser mics, due to the sudden overload of humidity in the room... It's far better to have that small "buffer" room to protect your gear, instruments, and the studio itself.

Sort of like your vestibule, but re-arranged so it butts up against both actual studio rooms, with doors to each...

DO I NEED AN INTERIOR DOOR? SORRY CONFUSED HERE

I should have been more clear about that comment: what I meant to say is that the vestibule construction as show creates flanking paths that couple the LR inner-leaf to the outer leaf, and since the vestibule is technically part of the outer leaf, yes, it does need another door on there, and another leaf.

OK. YOU HAVE MY ATTENTION

The best way to get good levels of isolation at low cost is by using the "fully-decoupled 2-leaf MSM isolation" method. That means that you have a cavity inside your walls that totally separates the two leaves. The same applies to the ceiling: also two-leaf with a separating cavity. If you were to put something inside the cavity, such as random times that you want to store for a while, then you are re-tuning the MSM system, and changing the isolation properties. Most likely for the worst...

Secondly, if you want to store stuff in there, then you'd need some type of access door or hatch into the cavity. That means you'd have to build that just the same as all the other isolation doors, with very high mass, multiple seals, over-size hinges, etc. An awful lot of work just for a storage area!

Thirdly, your HVAC ducting and silencer boxes need to be in thee cavity, if you want to make efficient use of space. Those will be BIG! The key to silencing the HVAC system is to move a lot of air at very slow speeds, instead of a bit of air at high speed. To move enough air at the speeds that are allowable for studios (under 300 FPM, and preferably around 100 FPM), you need very large vents and ducts. And to keep the sound in while allowing the air to move through, you need very large silencer boxes. You can either put those inside the rooms, where they take up a lot of space, or inside the ceiling and wall cavities, where they don't.

If you want, I could send you some images of typical HVAC systems that I have designed for my paying customers, but I would have to do that off-line, not in public, as I don't have their authorization to put their studio details out in public. PM me if you'd like to see some of those.

SO YOU ARE SUGGESTING I RE ARRANGE THE ROOMS AND HAVE A CONVENTIONAL STUDIO WINDOW? $$? THEN A DOOR AS WELL WITH OR WITHOUT AN AIR LOCK?

Not really. I guess I didn't explain that too well! What I was trying to suggest was that instead of buying very expensive sliding glass doors, you could build conventional hinged doors that have large glass panels in them. It would be much cheaper, and just as good. When you open a sliding glass door fully, you have less than half the width as actual open area. A hinged door can actually provide you a wider opening that a sliding glass door... Better for getting gear through... It's not that hard to site-build such doors. Once again, I'd be happy to show you examples off-line.

THANK YOU....I NEED TO STOP DRUMS FROM COMING THROUGH THE WALL. ANY IDEA HOW MUCH I NEED?

I wish it were as easy as saying "You need 61.384 dB TL to do that", but it isn't. It is all relative. Let me explain:

If you are playing your drums at 100 dB in a typical house in a noisy city suburb, then you might only need 40 dB of isolation to keep your neighbors happy, as the ambient noise would mask the drums. Move the same scene out to the countryside, and you might need 50 dB of isolation, because there is a mot less ambient noise to mask the drums. But move that into a studio, and the question becomes: how well isolated is the studio? The better the quieter it is inside, the more noticeable the drums will be even when well isolated. Let's say you get your CR is at NC-35, and your drums are at the same 110 dB level in the next room. You'd need about 65 dB of isolation to get them to the point where you can barely hear them. But if the same CR is actually NC-15 (instead of NC-35, which is noisy for a studio), then you'd need more like 75 dB isolation.

In all four cases, we have the exact same drums and drummer, playing at 110 dB, but in the best case you only needed 40 dB to make them inaudible, while at the other extreme even ten thousand times more isolation did not do the trick: (Yes, 70 dB really is ten thousand times the isolation of 40 dB. It blocks ten thousand times more sound intensity...).

That's why I can't give you a simple answer: because the question is not as simple as it looks. The quieter you get your studio inside, the higher the level of isolation you would need between rooms. That's one reason why modern office buildings are specifically designed to have "noisy" HVAC systems, where the air noise has a specific signature that masks typical office sounds really well. So you can't hear the guy at the nest desk talking on the phone. The NC-rating is very high, on purpose. But for a studio, to needs to be very low.

And of course, the more isolation you need, the more expensive it gets. It goes up exponentially, because the decibel scale is also exponential (logarithmic, to be more accurate): The very best isolated studio on planet earth gets about 100 dB of isolation, and cost millions of dollars to build. That's Galaxy Studios, in Belgium. Each room consists of a hugely massive concrete bunker inside another hugely massive concrete bunker, resting on massive steel springs with neoprene pads. And even then, it does not isolate perfectly: you can easily hear a gunshot in the next room. Heavily muffled, but audible.

So that's the 64,000 dollar question: what level of isolationism should you design for? 50 is relatively easy to do, 60 is quite a bit harder, 70 is really tough. 50 is easily in range of a budget in the tens of thousands of dollars, while 70 would need a budget with an extra zero on the end...

I would suggest that you shoot for 60-something. That's probably about as high as you can go in your case. Drums will still be vaguely audible in the next room, but very dull, muffled, soft, and distant.

I MIGHT BE ABLE TO USE 2 AND FOR THE NEW STRUCTURE AND DO THE OLD CR IN PHASE 2 OF THE PROJECT.

That would work.

I HAVE BEEN DEBATING OVER THIS AS THE RAMP WOULD BE ABOUT $1500 OR SO

The ramp would not need to be concrete: You could do a nice wooden ramp for less money that that. Or maybe a stone ramp (rocks) with just a bit of concrete for the surface.

ANY ADVISE ON METAL STUDS FOR THE 18FT WALLS?

It might be possible. I don't work much with metal studs. Most of my designs are for wood. But you might be able to go higher with metal than you can with wood, Your structural guy can probably answer that.

THANK YOU. WILL FOLLOW UP.

Looking forward to following your build, whichever way it goes: It's a really nice large space, with great potential and a decent budget. It has the makings of a fantastic place, if designed carefully and built carefully.


- Stuart -

[Drumoverdubs]

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HI,
Thanks for all the feedback!
The first set of comments made me retreat and look for other options. The effort and expense trying to build a control room next to the drum room is one of the big issues for me. Here is another Idea for the project. It basically keeps my current CR (The smaller room) and just add live room and booth/storage
the biggest issue is the noise floor in the current CR is 29db. noise outside is about 48db on a quiet day. It could be lowered by removing a window replacing the exterior door and building out the inside properly. (The photo shows an inside wall that is not there yet). I just have channel, soundboard, 2 sheets of rock. Not a proper room but could we torn out and reworked. (The outside skin on that building is metal).
Drumming noise level is 105db
*All of the rooms ratio wise fit into the bolt calculator.
CR 15x11x9ft Current Control Room amroc.andymel.eu/?l=15&w=11&h=9&ft=true&r60=0.6
Booth http://amroc.andymel.eu/?l=16.5&w=12&h= ... ue&r60=0.6 16.5x12x13
LR http://amroc.andymel.eu/?l=28&w=21.5&h= ... ue&r60=0.6 28x21.5x15

My question:
Is this a better design for a guy who does mostly 80% online drum tracks 20% full tracking/od/mixing. (would like to do more)

Thank you for your help!
Is the current CR going to be a disaster or can I make that work with proper treatment? I currently use ASC tube traps. I have not had the room tested but images well and seems to be tight. I currently have 4 16in rounds
2 13in rounds
6 studio traps along with panels and clouds etc...

Or is it paramount to build a new control room?

[Soundman2020]

Here is another Idea for the project. It basically keeps my current CR (The smaller room) and just add live room and booth/storage

I think there are better options than that. Working with a small control room that is poorly isolated and totally separated physically from the rest, is not really a good idea. I'd use that area for storage / office / whatever, and keep the CR and LR together in the one building.

My question:
Is this a better design for a guy who does mostly 80% online drum tracks 20% full tracking/od/mixing. (would like to do more)

Assuming you mic drums in both cases, I would really, really keep the two rooms together. For me, mic'ing drums is a big deal. It takes a while to set up each mic in the best location, then check that on the speakers in the CR. Lots of back and forth, tweaking, adjusting... If you have to do that by running between two buildings, late at night, when it's cold and raining... well, let's just say that your enjoyment and enthusiasm might not be at a very high level!

Keep the rooms together, with easy access between them.

I have not had the room tested ....

Well then, now would be a good time to test it! Download REW (it's free), set up your best, flattest omni mic (or get a proper acoustic measurement mic), and do the test. Post the results here. I'd be happy to analyze them for you, and point out how good/bad your room really is.


- Stuart -