Vegas Garage Drum Studio Build

[jskdrums]

Greetings from Las Vegas everyone! I'm going to do my best to do a proper 1st, actually my 2nd post, in order to end up with the best studio I can within my means / situation. First, a lil about me. I'm a professional musician / drummer based in Las Vegas. I play about 250 live shows a year local & touring regionally. I do occasional session work & also play in a house band on a ABC TV show here in Vegas. I've been here without a place to practice for about 5 years! I can't wait to finally be able to set up & create in my own home!

My Goals: To conquer the musical world through deep grooves!!! Seriously, I would like to use my studio for a variety of tasks. Rehearsing, Recording, & Mixing if at all possible. I know it's a lot to expect from such a small room, but I want to do my best to make it all come together. I will attach pix of it's current state.

1) I'm in the construction phase of my Drum Room / Studio & already completed quite a bit. I own my house & have a 2 car garage with 1 of the stalls being longer for a boat etc. Well, that long stall is where my studio is being built. Unfortunately I also need to be able to park both cars in my garage leaving only a small area for the studio. I'll post dimensions below.

2) My studio is inside the garage & not touching any of the existing walls. The only contact point is the cement garage floor.

3) The Walls & Ceiling are built on 2x6s with staggered 2x4 studs. On the outside there is 1 layer of 5/8" OSB & 2 layers of 5/8" Sheetrock. So 3 layers on the exterior. Inside the walls is Johns Manville Thermal & Sound Insulation. The interior walls currently have only 1 layer of 5/8" Sheetrock that I used Backer Rod & Big Stretch to seal all corners, floor & ceiling joints. The only spot I didn't use Backer Rod was on the wall where the 2 ply's of Sheetrock come together in the middle of the wall.. In those spots I only used Big Stretch.

4) Electrical - I will be wiring for 3 separate circuits. 1) for outlets 1) for the ceiling lights & 1) for a Ductless Mini Split. Currently the rough electrical is in for outlets & lighting. I plan to run the 3rd circuit for the Mini Split once the walls are finished.

5) HOW LOUD??? I expect to be pretty loud as I do play a variety of music including Loud Rock & Electronic Music. I don't have exact numbers yet, but I will be buying a good quality Sound Level Meter in order to address this. My house is in a track community & I do have a neighbor on the same side as the studio.. Luckily he doesn't live here full time & only visits a few times a year for a few weeks each visit.


6) Budget… I've got about $1,000 left to play with at the moment

7) I've attached several Pics that I hope will give you the current state of affairs.

Here's a link to the Mini-Split I bought. (FWIW - I've been trying to create a hyperlink for over an hour & it never works) I tried using this: TextYouActuallySee & it doesn't work..ughh!

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-Condition ... ioner+9000

I intend to use the 2 Diffuser Boxes pictured for send & return air flow.

9) Dimensions…my apology for the crapy drawing, but it has the rough dimensions as measured from inside my room that currently only has 1 layer of 5/8" Sheetrock at the moment. The height from Concrete Floor to Ceiling is (7feet-7.5inches).



QUESTIONS:

1) What should I do next? I have enough Green Glue to add a 2nd layer of 5/8" Sheetrock to the inside, but I'm not sure if I should. Every inch will count in my small room.

2) The electrical wiring for all 5 outlets, light switch, & ceiling light are rough ran through small 1" holes as seen in the pics. Originally I planned to use the blue electrical boxes pictured. They are designed to be added after sheet rocking & would be held in by a tab on the screws that would tighten & clench against the sheet rock. It would not touch the studs at all. Is there a better way to do electrical boxes that might not require cutting larger holes in order to fit these boxes? Can I do something that would work using the 1" holes that already exist?

3) This is a link to my Light Kit w/ Specs:

http://www.lightingdirect.com/tech-ligh ... 3548895777!

I assume that in order to tame my room, I will probably have to make a cloud. Do you see any issues with using these lights. FWIW - I plan to use LED bulbs once it's installed.



I know there are a ton of other things I'll need to deal with, i.e. the door, tuning the room, etc. I also know it's not the ideal room but it's what I have to live with for the time being. I just hope I can make a small miracle out of it if at all possible. First priority is to have a place to practice & rehearse, 2nd would be record, 3rd would be mixing.


Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to read this & chime in with your knowledge & perspective.

To be honest I've been a lil scared to post this, but oh well…here goes

Cheers -John

[Soundman2020]

Hi there "jskdrums", and Welcome!

1) I'm in the construction phase of my Drum Room / Studio & already completed quite a bit.

It would be good if you could post the complete design for that, hopefully a complete SketchUp model, so we can see exactly what you are doing, and maybe help you do it better.

2) My studio is inside the garage & not touching any of the existing walls. The only contact point is the cement garage floor.

Excellent! but we'd need to see how you did that, to make sure you did not create a three-leaf system anywhere. That would be sad. 3-leaf for a drum room would be problematic.

3) The Walls & Ceiling are built on 2x6s with staggered 2x4 studs.

The photos seem to show that it is very, very close to the exterior wall of the garage on at least one side, and I'm guessing two sides. That is a 3-leaf system, and it is also wasting space... What you should have done is to tie in the outer-leaf of your drum room to the existing garage wall, then build the inner-leaf inside that. More space, better isolation, less materials, lower cost. It's a pity you only found the forum after you got this far: we could have helped you avoid that mistake.

4) Electrical - I will be wiring for 3 separate circuits. 1) for outlets 1) for the ceiling lights & 1) for a Ductless Mini Split. Currently the rough electrical is in for outlets & lighting. I plan to run the 3rd circuit for the Mini Split once the walls are finished.

All done with surface-mount, I hope? No penetrations of your walls anywhere? I don't see that in your photos, though...

I don't have exact numbers yet, but I will be buying a good quality Sound Level Meter in order to address this.

WHOOOA!!! You already BUILT the place, and you don't even have a sound level meter? So how did you determine what level of isolation to build for? How did you come to the conclusion that a 3-leaf wall with a single layer of drywall on the inside, two layers of drywall plus OSB on the middle leaf, and your existing garage wall for the outer leaf, would provide the level of isolation that you need, at the frequencies where you need it? What is your calculated F+ and F- for your 3-leaf system? What is your calculated TL? And how did you arrive at those, if you never measure how loud you are before starting, nor how quiet you have to be?

1) What should I do next? I have enough Green Glue to add a 2nd layer of 5/8" Sheetrock to the inside, but I'm not sure if I should. Every inch will count in my small room.

You should get that sound level meter, do some tests, see what level of isolation you are getting at present, and how much more you need, if any.

2) The electrical wiring for all 5 outlets, light switch, & ceiling light are rough ran through small 1" holes as seen in the pics.

In conduit? Like this? :

Conduit-isolation-2.png

Conduit-isolation-3.png

It would not touch the studs at all. Is there a better way to do electrical boxes that might not require cutting larger holes in order to fit these boxes?

Yes. Like this:

http://www.calcentron.com/Pages/fram-tr ... aceway.htm
ttp://www.legrand.us/wire-cable-management/raceways.aspx

Can I do something that would work using the 1" holes that already exist?

Not really, no. Plug them up, and do it right using surface-mount raceways. You an have one single penetration, which must be done as shown using conduit that has a small section cut out, with the gap then wrapped in rubber.

Do you see any issues with using these lights. FWIW - I plan to use LED bulbs once it's installed.

That should work fine.

I know there are a ton of other things I'll need to deal with, i.e. the door, tuning the room, etc.

This is a drum practice room, so it doesn't really need tuning in the same sense as a control room does, but it will still need considerable treatment. The best way to figure out what to do is to run a test using the REW software in the empty room, then based on the results from that, decide on what treatment you will need, and where to put it.

First priority is to have a place to practice & rehearse, 2nd would be record, 3rd would be mixing.

So mixing as well? Ok, scratch the above comment. It WILL need tuning. What you will need to do is to carefully setup your speakers in the exact locations where they will be for mixing, using the correct geometry and layout for that room, then place the measurement mic at the exact location where your head will be, and run a REW test like that, in the otherwise empty room. That will be your baseline acoustic test, against which all later tests will be compared, as you go though the tuning process. You can then install the initial treatment that is always needed for small rooms, and do another test to see how well that is working, then design individual treatment devices to deal with the specific issues that crop up at each point. Rinse, repeat...

To be honest I've been a lil scared to post this, but oh well…here goes

Well, I guess we do sort of have a reputation for "telling it like it is", no sugar coating, no punches pulled, here on the forum and some people find that hard to take. But to be honest, it's probably the best approach, rather than beating around the bush, trying to break it to you gently, before getting to the same point anyway... ! Why waste your time and mine by dropping subtle hints, disguised as things they aren't, running off on tangents, instead of just getting to the point? It would not make it any easier to fix the problem...


- Stuart -

[jskdrums]

Holy Crap! I'm so happy to see your reply Stuart! And, yes I'm glad that you're brutally honest. I just got home from a late gig so I will need to re-read & process everything so I can respond with as much detail as possible.

On a side note, I had a friend come over & slam on the drums while I walked around inside & outside my house & I'm very impressed with how quiet it is. I think I may have accomplished enough isolation already as it is very quiet everywhere except inside the room itself.

[blueshadow]

Looking good jsk. What was the ballpark figure of what you've spent so far? Thinking of doing almost the same size room in my garage next year hopefully. Is the rest of the garage drywalled? Question then for Stuart, I've got a decent understanding of the 2 leaf vs 3 and have seen others ask but haven't seen or missed the answer. If building a small room inside a garage that is sheet rocked already does it not create a 3 leaf or is the open garage door (even closed wouldn't have much effect) and large space between the drum room and the rest of the garage keep it from being 3 leaf? Hope that makes sense.

[Soundman2020]

If building a small room inside a garage that is sheet rocked already does it not create a 3 leaf

Yes it does. Very correct. And that's the problem, potentially. Opening or closing the garage door won't have any real effect on that, since it is a resonance issue, due to the "leaves" of mass being next to layers of air that act as springs anyway, regardless of the door or anything else.

That's why it would have been better here to use the existing garage wall as the outer leaf for two sides of this room, taking off the drywall facing the garage and perhaps beefing up and sealing whatever is on the other side of those studs. Then build the other two outer-leaf walls to complete the envelope, then build the inner-leaf inside that shell.

But it is already done, and not worth undoing now. It would have been less expensive, quicker, more effective, and used less materials, but undoing all of that now would waste more time, money and materials, so it's not justifiable. The OP is getting reasonable isolation so far, so there's no reay need to knock it down and re-do it.

"and large space between the drum room and the rest of the garage keep it from being 3 leaf? "

If the gap is large enough, yes, that does eliminate the 3-leaf problem. Or rather, it is still there, but forced down to a very low frequency, and broad, low Q, so it stops being a problem.


- Stuart -

[jskdrums]

I downloaded Sketchup, but it won't work on my current OS & I don't want to mess with my macbook pro since everything is working smoothly. So once again I apologize for my hand drawn sketch of my house floor plan. I hope this will give a better idea how it resides in the layout of my house. It's in the garage and only touching the cement floor.

The wall on the left side of the studio is appx 3" away from the garage wall & not touching it in any way. My entire garage is finished in sheet rock.

The wall with the circles (W) & (S) is 3 feet away from the garage wall that backs up to the Laundry Room. The (W) = water heater & (S) = water softener.

The wall on the right side of the studio is 3.5 feet away from the interior garage wall & is like a short hall leading into the house. The door opens to the Laundry / Closet area. The door going into the studio is on the bottom right corner of this wall.

The wall at the bottom part of the studio is 15 feet away from the big garage door opening where our cars will enter. While I wish I could have made my studio larger, I really need to be able to park my car in here.

The ceiling of the studio is 1.5 feet from the actual garage ceiling.

I know I have a ton of others questions to answer, but I have to head out to a gig.

I bought a Sound Level Meter that should arrive on Monday.

I've downloaded the REW software & will run it asap.

In the meantime I want to thank you guys for your feedback & input. I will answer all of your questions ASAP.

For now, here's my sketch / house / studio layout. I hope this helps clarify my situation a bit.

[jskdrums]

Looking good jsk. What was the ballpark figure of what you've spent so far? Thinking of doing almost the same size room in my garage next year hopefully. Is the rest of the garage drywalled? Question then for Stuart, I've got a decent understanding of the 2 leaf vs 3 and have seen others ask but haven't seen or missed the answer. If building a small room inside a garage that is sheet rocked already does it not create a 3 leaf or is the open garage door (even closed wouldn't have much effect) and large space between the drum room and the rest of the garage keep it from being 3 leaf? Hope that makes sense.

Thanks blueshadow. Yes my entire garage is finished drywall. So I had a unique situation in that a friend of mine had built a studio in his garage here in Las Vegas & was moving to Texas. He told me I could have the studio, but I needed to dismantle & remove it, otherwise he was going to trash it. He told me he had about $6,000 into. So my studio is a recycled studio if you will. Originally his room was I think 15' L x 12' W x 8' H also with the door on a corner angle. It took up enough of his garage that he wasn't able to park any cars in it. His studio used only 1 layer of OSB inside & out. I learned about the idea of MSM & decided to go with 5/8" sheetrock in addition on the outer walls to add mass. Plus it looks way nicer than OSB.

So to answer what I've spent so far, I only had to buy the 5/8" drywall, New Romex, screws, Big Stretch Caulk --- ALOT OF IT!, Breakers, a few 2x4's, lighting fixture, Ductless Mini Split, Backer Rod. I think about $1,000 total since most of the lumber, insulation, & OSB was free.


Unfortunately I had to make my room work around my cars since I need to park inside our garage & redesigned it to do so. I know it's not ideal, but it's better than the no studio situation I've been in for the past 5 years.

I thought I was creating a 2 leaf design by doing 2x6's with staggered 2x4 studs & not having it touch any of the existing garage. I thought that since the wall closet to the garage (3 inches gap) that I would be OK since it doesn't connect. Sadly I didn't realize that creates a 3 leaf system. I hope that the spacing / gap between my other walls is enough to work. ( 3 feet - rear wall, 3.5 feet - side wall, 1.5 feet ceiling gap between studio & garage ceiling.)

[jskdrums]

Hi there "jskdrums", and Welcome!

Thanks Stuart I couldn't be happier to have your input.

1)hopefully a complete SketchUp model, so we can see exactly what you are doing, and maybe help you do it better.

I downloaded Sketchup but it won't work on my current OS. I don't want to update it in fear it will screw up my perfectly functional mac. I did my best to draw a better floor plan by hand. I hope they're good enough to give you the info you need.

The photos seem to show that it is very, very close to the exterior wall of the garage on at least one side, and I'm guessing two sides. That is a 3-leaf system, and it is also wasting space... What you should have done is to tie in the outer-leaf of your drum room to the existing garage wall, then build the inner-leaf inside that. More space, better isolation, less materials, lower cost. It's a pity you only found the forum after you got this far: we could have helped you avoid that mistake.

I wish I knew this before I got as far as I have. As you said in another reply, it's not worth re-doing at this point. However now that I know this, I will plan better on future studio builds.

4) Electrical - I will be wiring for 3 separate circuits. 1) for outlets 1) for the ceiling lights & 1) for a Ductless Mini Split. Currently the rough electrical is in for outlets & lighting. I plan to run the 3rd circuit for the Mini Split once the walls are finished.

All done with surface-mount, I hope? No penetrations of your walls anywhere? I don't see that in your photos, though…

The Romex wire has been run into the studio via conduit just like the pics you posted below, then run to each location & through the drywall via a 1" hole. I haven't yet mounted any electrical boxes. So, based on what you replied I think I may have been able to do this better by only having the wire penetrate the drywall in 1 place the surface run in to each location. If this is the case, sadly I'm nut in a position to redo what I've done.

So in moving forward, do I mount the actual electrical outlet boxes to the drywall so that it sticks out into the room vs sitting flush with the drywall?

I don't have exact numbers yet, but I will be buying a good quality Sound Level Meter in order to address this.

WHOOOA!!! You already BUILT the place, and you don't even have a sound level meter? So how did you determine what level of isolation to build for? How did you come to the conclusion that a 3-leaf wall with a single layer of drywall on the inside, two layers of drywall plus OSB on the middle leaf, and your existing garage wall for the outer leaf, would provide the level of isolation that you need, at the frequencies where you need it? What is your calculated F+ and F- for your 3-leaf system? What is your calculated TL? And how did you arrive at those, if you never measure how loud you are before starting, nor how quiet you have to be?

I clearly made mistakes here & thought I was building a 2 leaf system not realizing that just being near the wall even if not connected makes it 3 leaf. I wish I could turn back time. However the good news is my previous sound test session with my friend bashing drums seems to be very well in the ball park of what I need in isolation. I can't wait to test it when my Sound Level Meter arrives this week.

1) What should I do next? I have enough Green Glue to add a 2nd layer of 5/8" Sheetrock to the inside, but I'm not sure if I should. Every inch will count in my small room.

You should get that sound level meter, do some tests, see what level of isolation you are getting at present, and how much more you need, if any.

Yes, that's the plan

2) The electrical wiring for all 5 outlets, light switch, & ceiling light are rough ran through small 1" holes as seen in the pics.

In conduit? Like this? :

Conduit-isolation-2.png

Conduit-isolation-3.png

Yes Well except that each location has a small 1" hole where the Romex is poking through where the electrical boxes & light switch will live.

It would not touch the studs at all. Is there a better way to do electrical boxes that might not require cutting larger holes in order to fit these boxes?

Yes. Like this:

http://www.calcentron.com/Pages/fram-tr ... aceway.htm

Can I still use this method ^ being that I've run my wiring inside the walls?

ttp://www.legrand.us/wire-cable-management/raceways.aspx

This link ^ doesn't work for me

Can I do something that would work using the 1" holes that already exist?

Not really, no. Plug them up, and do it right using surface-mount raceways. You an have one single penetration, which must be done as shown using conduit that has a small section cut out, with the gap then wrapped in rubber.

OK - I think this just answered a few of my previous questions / situations. My friend who is a contractor that is helping me with this suggested the same thing & says he knows how to do what you've mentioned.

Do you see any issues with using these lights. FWIW - I plan to use LED bulbs once it's installed.

That should work fine.

Yay!!!

I know there are a ton of other things I'll need to deal with, i.e. the door, tuning the room, etc.

This is a drum practice room, so it doesn't really need tuning in the same sense as a control room does, but it will still need considerable treatment. The best way to figure out what to do is to run a test using the REW software in the empty room, then based on the results from that, decide on what treatment you will need, and where to put it.

Downloaded the REW software & plan to run it ASAP. FWIW - I'm planning to build a bunch of broadband absorbers & bass traps like I've seen in this thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =3&t=15305

First priority is to have a place to practice & rehearse, 2nd would be record, 3rd would be mixing.

So mixing as well? Ok, scratch the above comment. It WILL need tuning. What you will need to do is to carefully setup your speakers in the exact locations where they will be for mixing, using the correct geometry and layout for that room, then place the measurement mic at the exact location where your head will be, and run a REW test like that, in the otherwise empty room. That will be your baseline acoustic test, against which all later tests will be compared, as you go though the tuning process. You can then install the initial treatment that is always needed for small rooms, and do another test to see how well that is working, then design individual treatment devices to deal with the specific issues that crop up at each point. Rinse, repeat...

Excellent. I plan to do this once I've finished / corrected some of my previous issues. I'm probably dreaming to think that I will be able to make this a decent room to mix in…Lord knows I'll try

To be honest I've been a lil scared to post this, but oh well…here goes

Well, I guess we do sort of have a reputation for "telling it like it is", no sugar coating, no punches pulled, here on the forum and some people find that hard to take. But to be honest, it's probably the best approach, rather than beating around the bush, trying to break it to you gently, before getting to the same point anyway... ! Why waste your time and mine by dropping subtle hints, disguised as things they aren't, running off on tangents, instead of just getting to the point? It would not make it any easier to fix the problem...

Yes & this is one of the things I love about your feedback. It absolutely has to be this way.

Once again I can't thank you enough for taking your time to help me on my little far from perfect, probably more of a trouble than it's worth room. I'm just really excited to have a place to play again!

Thanks Stuart!

[jskdrums]

Here are a few more pics.

[Soundman2020]

Here's the Sound Level Meter I just purchased.

This is the Hall leading from the garage into the house. It's the wall on the right side of the studio that has the studio door at the bottom right corner.

You might need to put some absorption in that hallway somewhere, if it turns out to be overly reverberant.

This is the Water Heater & Water Softner that lives between the studio wall & the rear garage wall that backs up to our Laundry Room.

Ditto.

I did my best to draw a better floor plan by hand. I hope they're good enough to give you the info you need.

Well, yes, but that's just a basic 2D sketch... sound is 3D, and you'll need a lot more detailed design than that! Down to every last stud and batt, and drywall panel...

So in moving forward, do I mount the actual electrical outlet boxes to the drywall so that it sticks out into the room

Yes, definitely, and seal the penetration very carefully.

This link ^ doesn't work for me

Ooops! Sorry! I forgot the leading "H" from that. Here's the complete link:

http://www.legrand.us/wire-cable-manage ... eways.aspx

I'm probably dreaming to think that I will be able to make this a decent room to mix in…

It can probably be made quite decent, if you do it with care...

Once again I can't thank you enough for taking your time to help me on my little far from perfect, probably more of a trouble than it's worth room. I'm just really excited to have a place to play again!

Hey, not problem! And if that's the space you've got, then that's what you've got! It sure as hell is a lot better than no place at all! It can be made reasonably decent.


- Stuart -

[jskdrums]

I'm so stoked that you replied! Once again Thank You! My lady is loosing patience with me not finishing this studio. I've been dragging my feet as much as I can. So, sorry I'm not answering everything in your last post.. I need to finish this room ASAP.

My thought is..next step is the electrical something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRducG5V4Uc
Plus making sure to seal every 1" gap that I already drilled…I assume I have to abandon the romex i already ran through the studs & buy/ run new romex & install it on the interior similar to the video.

[Soundman2020]

I need to finish this room ASAP.

I'm sure you do, but DON'T RUSH! Rushing a studio build is a sure recipe for disaster. It is far, far better to take your time, investigate everything, design it completely, double-check every last detail.... and only then start building. And that applies to every step of the build, too...

Plus making sure to seal every 1" gap that I already drilled…I assume I have to abandon the romex i already ran through the studs & buy/ run new romex & install it on the interior similar to the video.

Not necessarily. You can probably still use those, if the cable is already pulled through. Just make sure to get the best possible seal you can on those penetrations, and build up the mass too.

My thought is..next step is the electrical something like this:

Yep. Looks about right.


- Stuart -

[jskdrums]

Hi guys, here's an update. I've since finished the electrical. 3 separate circuits ( 1 for the outlets, 1 for the ceiling lights, & 1 for the Ductless Mini-Split). All are working nicely! I've been able to set up some drums, practice, teach lessons, & do some rehearsals at any hour with zero issues so I'm happy with the results.

I've recently found some panels I liked & thought would add a nice look / vibe to the walls. I'm curious if anyone has used these or a similar product.

Here's a few links: http://www.ekenamillwork.com/about-our- ... white.html

https://www.amazon.com/Art3d-Decorative ... 2D6K1T1RGH

I know that I will need to remove everything from the room so I can run the REW test & I'm wondering if I should do it before or after installing these panels?

I also realize that these panels will have small air pockets behind them once glued / attached to the wall. Will I need to fill them in? If so, what do you recommend?

Thanks in advance...I hope you are all doing well