First Design - Not trying to get it "perfect"

[Soundman2020]

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- Stuart -

[5meohd]

Thats what I get for trying to get this done while sick.. late at night..

Hopefully this works:

[5meohd]

Here are some sketchup SKETCHES.

The black outlines on the floor are an extremely vague concept that I came up with just trying to stay away from the big pipes shooting vertical through our space.

I've basically known the whole time (and now confirmed after finishing Rod's book) that we simply do not have the budget to do this properly.

With that said, we are still hoping to do "our best". We can spend around $5,000 and do ALL the work ourselves or by free labor from our large network of friends who are excited about the project. (Keeping in mind that we simply don't have the money for expensive things)

I think in the end we will happy simply having the space treated well, clean proper AC power, and the ergonomics of the large space and our new console.

I'd love to proceed to designing out "the best" and then subtract where we must. Does that make sense?

[Soundman2020]

Much better!

You have a really nice space there! It could be fantastic.... many forum members would happily auction off their firstborn and sell their very souls to have a space like that to build in!!! (OK, slight exaggeration....) Are you sure you can't raise more money, to give that place the attention it deserves? That place has some really, really great possibilities...

trying to stay away from the big pipes shooting vertical through our space.

Smart move! Those are not your friends...

Here are some sketchup SKETCHES. ... The black outlines on the floor are an extremely vague concept that I came up with

I would suggest going with a simpler design, since you are on a tight budget, and also since this is your first studio build. Just go with a plain rectangular shape for the room (but still keeping well away from those nasty pipes!). Any time you add extra walls, or splay them (angle them) you are adding complexity to the construction, and adding cost. Keep it as simple as possible, if you want to keep your costs down.

With that said, we are still hoping to do "our best". We can spend around $5,000 and do ALL the work ourselves or by free labor from our large network of friends who are excited about the project. (Keeping in mind that we simply don't have the money for expensive things)

So I'd suggest going with very common and standard sized building materials: nothing fancy. Just stuff you can buy at any Home Depot, Lowes, or whatever other building supplies store you have nearby.

I think in the end we will happy simply having the space treated well, clean proper AC power, and the ergonomics of the large space and our new console.

New console??? Now you got my attention... What did you guys get? (Make, model).

Which leads to the next question: What main speakers will you be using in there? And what other gear do you have? It's important to know that, to plan the room layout, and how to fit things in.

In one of your previous posts, you mentioned that this isn't going to be your final studio, and you'll probably move from here sooner or later. so here's another suggestion: Design it to be modular, so you can take it apart and take it with you when you go, then re-use the modules at your new place...

- Stuart -

[5meohd]

Dimensions of space we have to work "inside" of: 178 3/8" (14.86') x 362 3/4" (30.23') x 124" (10.33')

449.22 sqft ---- 4640.42 cuft

That includes those pipes. Would you just make the interior framed EAST wall "inside" of those pipes? That would shrink our width from 14.86' to ~ 12'. Then we would subtract the framing materials for the WEST and EAST wall from that. ~ 11.21' x 29.44' <-- best case interior rectangle?

Then I have to ask, how much space should be between these vertical cedar beams and "back" of our new stud walls?

My partner also wants me to confirm that we 'absolutely' need to build a framed wall inside of the brick (EAST) wall, as that surface is so beautiful! Is their a de-coupling system we could use to attach a 3 sided wall system to that brick?

When you say to get rid of the angles, I have to ask, why? I am a skilled carpenter by trade, I own the best miter saw in the business (imho: Festool Kapex) so I'm not seeing splayed walls as an extra expense at this point. Especially considering we have 4-5 months to dial in the design before we break ground. Just wondering!

Console is an old analog broadcast beast from 1996. Wheatstone TV-1000. It's not a recording board but for $1,300 (including an entire backup board "for parts") we couldn't resist!

I'm planning to build the Wilmslow Audio ATC SCM100 clones. I wanted to "flush-mount" them, hence the 30 degree angled walls. We currently have Equator 10 and Genelec 8030a. But keep in mind, this isn't a typical facility so our needs for monitor placement are odd. e.g. We desire to have our main sweet-spot be a basic DAW desk and the ATC clones (and maybe a "shit" reference pair too). The Equators placed over a table with a ton of synths and drum machines and the Genelecs placed on the meter bridge of the console. IT IS NOT paramount to have the console in the "sweet spot". We bought it to have actual knobs for tracking, unity summing, and the occasional "dub mix". Most of our critical edits, sound design, and mixing will be done with a mouse and I absolutely MUST have an ergonomic workflow. Never could use a trackball sitting on a console.. tried, hate it.

[5meohd]

How about this:

Interior walls are set at 3' and the exterior at 1' so that we could still see whats going on.

Thanks!

[Soundman2020]

That includes those pipes. Would you just make the interior framed EAST wall "inside" of those pipes? That would shrink our width from 14.86' to ~ 12'. Then we would subtract the framing materials for the WEST and EAST wall from that. ~ 11.21' x 29.44' <-- best case interior rectangle?

You could probably go a bit closer to those pipes if you wanted, and gain a bit more space. Any idea what those pipes are carrying? It might be worthwhile soffiting them in, if they are just thin-walled air ducts of some type, or if they are carrying something noisy. They will be inside your MSM cavity, so they won't be well isolated.

Then I have to ask, how much space should be between these vertical cedar beams and "back" of our new stud walls?

A couple of inches should be fine, but I'd check if they might be picking up any vibration form the rest of the building: borrow a stethoscope and listen to them, to see what you hear. If there's a lot of noise in those, then increase the distance a bit.

But all of this comes down to the single most important question: How much isolation do you need, in decibels? Once you define that, then the dimensions, air gaps, building materials, in-fill and everything else follows naturally. Without know that, it's all just guesswork and prone to errors.

My partner also wants me to confirm that we 'absolutely' need to build a framed wall inside of the brick (EAST) wall, as that surface is so beautiful! Is their a de-coupling system we could use to attach a 3 sided wall system to that brick?

See above! How much isolation do you need? With a single-leaf wall (such as that brick wall would be if you don't build a proper 2-leaf MSM system) then you are limited to a set of equations known as "mass law", which isn't very heartening... a single leaf wall places severe restrictions on how much isolation you can get at reasonable cost and in a reasonable space. Once you put up a second leaf next to it, then you move to an entirely different set of equations (because resonance is now a big part of the setup), which is a lot happier: you can get much higher levels of isolation with less total mass and in less total thickness (and less cost).

So here too I'd suggest first listening to that wall with a stethoscope to see if it has picked up any flanking noise form the rest of the building (water running in pipes, doors opening/closing, people walking on floors, wind noise, vibration from machinery such as elevators, escalators, pumps, fans, vibration from traffic outside, etc.) If you hear any of that, then the wall is a flanking path, and places a very low limit on how much isolation you can get from it. Even if it is not a flanking path, the maximum isolation is still limited by mass law. Now, whether or not that is sufficient for your needs depends on what your needs are! Thus, you need to come up with a number for "How much isolation you need, in decibels.".

When you say to get rid of the angles, I have to ask, why?

IT complicates seals at the joints, it complicates acoustic prediction of how the room will behave, because the simplest acoustic equations only work for rectangular rooms with six sides (4 walls, 1 ceiling, 1 floor, all perpendicular to each other). Any shape other than a rectangle makes it exponentially harder to predict the acoustic response of the room in advance. Also, walls angled in the manner you show for the front of the room will act more or less like a concave lens for some frequencies, focusing them back into the room in patterns that are different for each frequency, so you'll have peaks and nulls in different parts of the room at different frequencies: there won't be any spot in the room that sounds the same as any other spot...

It's best to start with a simple rectangle, which is easy to predict, easy to build, easy to seal, then add angled sections inside that, as needed, depending on the design philosophy you want to use for the room.

I am a skilled carpenter by trade,

Ok, great, but are you also a skilled drywaller? Can you cut drywall panels accurately with angled beveled edges, then line them up perfectly, seal them, mud and tape them, while maintaining constant surface density and not cracking the panels? If so, then great. If not, then you have a problem... You don't need to be a skilled drywaller to if the room is rectangular with 90° angles everywhere. You do if there are any angles.

Console is an old analog broadcast beast from 1996. Wheatstone TV-1000. It's not a recording board but for $1,300 (including an entire backup board "for parts") we couldn't resist!

Wow! That's a pretty amazing console, at a total give-away price! Lucky guys!

But that's also a huge and very heavy console. Did you check the floor support situation in your building? Can it handle an 800 pound load like that spread over just a small area? And that's in addition to the weight of the actual studio construction, furniture, people, and the rest of the gear... You guys are going to need a structural engineer to take a close look at that place. From the photos you posted, I'm not at all convinced those floor boards can handle that type of load safely.

Such a large console also introduces some interesting factors for the layout, geometry and acoustics of the room...

I'm planning to build the Wilmslow Audio ATC SCM100 clones. I wanted to "flush-mount" them,

But those are supposed to be floor-mounted speakers! They probably can be flush mounted, but flush mounting speakers that were not designed for it introduces another st of challenges. Will you be using them as active speakers, with the amp modules in, or will you be using them as passives?

But keep in mind, this isn't a typical facility so our needs for monitor placement are odd. We desire to have our main sweet-spot be a basic DAW desk and the ATC clones (and maybe a "shit" reference pair too). The Equators placed over a table with a ton of synths and drum machines and the Genelecs placed on the meter bridge of the console....

Ummmm... this may seem a little harsh, but I don't understand why you'd build a control room around one of the best consoles ever made (easily comparable to SSL or Neve), which probably cost a quarter to a half a million dollars when it was new, but then not set things as a usable control room, with proper layout and good acoustics? To my way of thinking, that's sort of like owning a Ferrari then fitting it with bicycle wheels, running it on castor oil, and only driving it up and down your garden path, while you use a Renault 5 to get around town!

If you have that console, then why would you not place it as the center-piece jewel of your control room, and set up the rest of the control room around it properly, including your DAW and other speakers? It just doesn't make sense to me that you'd do that.

IT IS NOT paramount to have the console in the "sweet spot"

With that monster console on the room but the room not set up correctly around it, there probably won't be any sweet spot. The console by itself is so large that it will modify the room acoustics just by being there. If the room is not set up symmetrically around that, then everything will suffer.

Genelecs placed on the meter bridge of the console

Are you aware that the meter bridge is the worst possible place to set up monitors? Do you understand the reason why high-end studios do that? (Besides, the meter bridge on your console slopes backwards; it is not flat...)

We bought it to have actual knobs for tracking, unity summing, and the occasional "dub mix".

If the only reason you have it is to have some good pre-amps, a summing amp, and some basic mixing OTB functions, then why do you have it at all? Just buy a few pre-amps, a summing amp, and a small analog console, and rack them alongside your DAW.

Most of our critical edits, sound design, and mixing will be done with a mouse and I absolutely MUST have an ergonomic workflow.

OK, so you mix pretty much 100% ITB. So do many people these days. So then why do you have that amazing console when you won't even be using 10% of its functionality?

Sorry to harp on this point so much, but it's just not making much sense at all. You have a fantastic console that you will hardly be using at all, and you want to place it in a control room that is barely big enough to contain it, where it will trash the acoustics of the room because it won't be set up in the correct location, and you plan to use floor-mounted speakers flush mounted in front of a DAW which will be the center-piece of the studio, but won't be able to operate as such because there's an 800 pound monster in the room that shouldn't be there!!!

Not getting this at all!

Never could use a trackball sitting on a console.. tried, hate it.

Then dont! Set up the DAW properly , along with the console, and use both of them to their full capabilities. DAWS are strong in some areas, your console is string in others. They complement each other. But just using it as a glorified pre-amp shoved away over up against one wall doesn't make a lot of sense.

- Stuart -

[5meohd]

You are a godsend! Thank you for all the corrections.

One thing I have to stress though is that it sounds like you really don't understand the workflow we desire. Its not that we will rarely use the console. Its that I won't make the MOST critical decisions with that tool. We are primarily working with line level signals and I do want to track with the eq/fikter on the console (direct out > UAD Apollo in). BUT we are constantly tweaking the computer software and truly designing sound in front of a monitor. I currently have a 2560 x 1440 display and we plan to add a second. So the distance between those displays and my eye balls while in the sweet spot is very very important. And in fact, I currently have it set up too far away and need to do some experimenting to figure out what is ideal.

If you have ideas for getting both Im all ears.

I thought about a custom bracket that hangs them in front of the meter bridge.. Maybe a scissor hinge that allows them to come forward and back.

[5meohd]

Well.

Back to the drawing board. At this moment I'm afraid we are no longer pursuing this space. As I said, it involved a few people. Of course, that didn't work out.

[Soundman2020]

At this moment I'm afraid we are no longer pursuing this space.

Damn! Somebody pulled out of the deal? BUMMER! That must be really annoying!

This place has such great possibilities, and I was really looking forward to seeing the design and the build come together. That's a real bummer.

I sure hope you find another place soon, and hopefully it will be even better.

- Stuart -

[5meohd]

I doubt it will be "better" in your eyes. That large of a space as only possible with the "group". My partner and I are no longer willing to take that risk.


We are now looking into a custom freestanding "shed", just large enough to fit the console and have "decent" acoustic dimensions, and fit the $5000 budget.

If you have any links, or reference to a similar build, pass it on. My basic thought is that "isolation" is the most expensive part (assuming basic construction costs are required already) of any build. So we can just build far away from anything AND we don't typically "record with microphones" (yeah I know, the idea of recording bands is totally on the back-burner and it sucks)..

Thanks for all your help. I'm sure its frustrating putting effort into so many un-resolved questions!

-Ben

[Soundman2020]

I'm sure its frustrating putting effort into so many un-resolved questions!

To be honest, I really don't see it as wasted effort at all! I'm sure it will be useful for somebody, some day, when they are in a similar situation and find your thread.

So no problem at all!

- Stuart -