Garage Studio Uncertainty, Mission Impossible?

[murmajesty]

Hello. Been here a bunch, searching for answers, man…but this is my very first post; forgive me if I've messed something up.

Seriously tho: just want to say thanks for being here and thanks in advance to anyone for taking their time to even read my query. I’ve made best efforts to present as many details below as I can from what I know and have observed. I am a composer/musician who makes records but also plays in a band. I can “swing a hammer” when I have to though admittedly I am not very good at it at all. There are times when I know it makes more sense to hire professionals. I live and work in Montreal; brutal winters, cruel summers. The neighbourhood in which I live and intend to build my ultra-modest lo-fi “facility” is in the most densely populated neighbourhood in the entire city. It can get noisy out there so music leaking out won’t be near the problem as noise leaking in. Planes fly pretty low above; the airport is about 10 kilometres away. Oh and there is a fire station just up the road…

The project, the building:

I have an (almost) gutted and stripped down garage out behind my house at the edge of the backyard. It is stand-alone, completely unattached. It has been standing for at least 70 yrs or so, surrounded by alleyway and my backyard. There are neighbours all around, most of them 50-100ft away. (Once, however, I recorded an entire rock album in my house, semi-detached, with no isolation at all and not one person complained.) The general dimensions of the interior are close approximates:

H:16’ W: 13’ L: 16-19’ (at the garage door it is 3’ longer, about 8’ high, a sort of alcove).
About 225 sqft

Outside (pics 01-04):
- Surrounding area around of garage door (pass-thru, just installed) is cement and concrete blocks about 3-4’ deep, 8-9’ high. The two “length walls” on either side of the exterior outside are standard bricks for up to about 8-9’ high. The remaining height, all around (and the entirety of the back wall) is all vinyl siding. There is another standard exterior door on the side wall close to the back wall.
*note the lean to shed (in production) is not part of the garage structure.

01. ext. front.JPG

02. ext. west.JPG

03. ext. back.JPG

04. ext east.JPG

Inside (Pics 06-07):
- framing is like a bloody funhouse. There could be some insulation behind the wood paneling that I can see but I’m not entirely certain what the make up is. The wood paneling is attached to the framing, all around, except for the concrete and brick around the garage door area. There is a second level as well. We gutted as much as we can, uncertain of which points are integral to the building structure. The joists for the second level are still there, the bottom of which is just under 8’ from the ground, spaced 20” apart. There are sketchy stairs as well, they take a lot of room; I would like to rip them out.

* I was advised by a structural engineer regarding the reinforcement of the building. He recommended new framing attached to the old framing as follows:
- walls framed 12” on centre spaced studs
- 2x6 joists attached to the old joists
- walls framed 12” on centre spaced studs on the second level.
- diagonal braced walls on all walls, top and bottom levels.
This is to ensure another 70 years I suppose.

06. int. example.JPG

07. int. to back.JPG

The floor (pics 09):
-is concrete. It looks “trenched” a bit on the edges, away from the exterior walls and wood paneling, about 4’.

09. int. slab 2.JPG

Window, second level (pic 10,12):
- one window the second level, about 1’ wide and maybe 3’ high. It is on the same side as the side door.

10. int. second level window.JPG

12. int. second level 2.JPG

Ceiling (pic 13):
- kinda the same as the walls, in that there is wood paneling just above the rafter/joist. (roof was re-done just last fall.)

13. int. ceiling.JPG

Finally, as you come back down the down the stairs the side door is like right there (pic 14):
- swings inward towards the back wall

14. int side door.JPG

The goals of the room:

- not trying to create a traditional, pro studio, with isolation booths etc. Some of my friends say “do two levels” some say “just do one open room, no levels.” What I am leaning towards and hoping to achieve is an open concept, mix of both. I have a 5-6 piece band that makes records. Sometimes we rehearse, but most times I’d use it as a writing/production room. I do a lot of mixing as well but mostly I prefer to do the serious stuff at a more traditional facility, supporting the professional studio economy. That said, I do have a 32 ch desk (5’x3’)and a bunch of out-board gear (at least a couple dozen units) and tape machines (16 track, 2-track). I also have drums, several amps of various sizes, and a lot keyboards.

- With the joists already in place, it does seem to make a lot of sense to me to use that second level perhaps as a mezzanine — which of course raises lots of concerns. But it also solves a lot of problems in terms of use of the space, which for me is ultra important - maximization. Being able to have two work concentrations (a "control" area and a "live/rehearsal" area) in the same space that is, in theory, only separated by a step ladder and a railing is not only appealing it seems like I almost have to make it happen somehow. It gets even trickier considering the possibility of having to remove those ancient joists, disrupting the structure of this old building. Daunting.

- I don’t need isolation within the room for recording or whatever, only from/to outside the room. But I don’t know whether I will be able to isolate properly or whether it will sound any good which is important to me as well. I have searched for this type of room up and down the internet and within this forum and nothing really has come close to giving me a clue as to the best design for my purpose. Frankly the part I am really stuck on is whether/how I can isolate AND keep the second level due the joists being attached to the structure. I fear the answer, but there has to be some kind of solution. At the same time, I’m ready to accept that it’s just not possible…

If anyone here can walk me through a couple of options with a little with more insight other than “dude, just do this...” I’d be able to make a better, more informed decision and begin the process of putting the plans together. I can also use some suggestions about where/how to circulate air, and any tips on running the power inside and any or all other considerations. As much research and reading as I have done I am still left feeling in way over my head. Any help would be really appreciated.

Oh and finally, my wife says “you have 10K, that’s it.” Part of which, is already spent, of course.

Thanks again and again.

[Soundman2020]

Hi there " murmajesty", and Welcome!

Once, however, I recorded an entire rock album in my house, semi-detached, with no isolation at all and not one person complained.

Yeah, but you live in MONTREAL! I'm betting it was so damn freezing outside that they did not want to die frozen while waking over to your place to complain... Or maybe they DID die frozen, and you just didn't find the bodies yet ...

The remaining height, all around (and the entirety of the back wall) is all vinyl siding.

OK, but waht is underneath the siding? It must be attached to something. Is there a vapor barrier in there any place? Insulation? Some type of backing, such as OSB? Something else?

There could be some insulation behind the wood paneling that I can see but I’m not entirely certain what the make up is.

You really should investigate, to find out for sure. It's important...

We gutted as much as we can, uncertain of which points are integral to the building structure.

careful there! If you don't understand structures, then don't demo anything at all! Sometimes things that don't "seem to be" structural really are, and things that really looks structural might not be. Better birng in an expert to take a look at that, and tell you what you can and cannot take off.

09. int. slab 2.JPG

If I'm understanding that photo right, then ... You had a structural guy in there, and he didn't notice the huge, glaring issue with those joists???? Joists are NEVER laid twisted over 45° with an edge down: they are always laid vertically. And they are always laid IN the depressions prepared for them in the walls, not NEXT to them. That joist appears to have warped out of place majestically... it's going to need some major work to get that safe again.

On the other hand, I'm having a real hard time understanding your photos: some seem to be rotated sideways, or even upside down... maybe you could check them, and make sure they are all oriented correctly?

Frankly the part I am really stuck on is whether/how I can isolate AND keep the second level due the joists being attached to the structure. I fear the answer, but there has to be some kind of solution. At the same time, I’m ready to accept that it’s just not possible…

Well, you probably CAN do both: isolate the entire place, and still have the second level... it just won't be much use as part of the studio. Perhaps for storage, or something like that, but upper levels are notoriously problematic for studios. If you look around, you'll notice that very few professional studios have upper levels. There's a reason for that. The few that do, have invested big money in making the upper level usable.

If your main priority is just to have a place where you can write, rehearse, and perform music, but not really for tracking or mixing, then I'd just go with a single room as big as possible on the ground floor, isolated as well as possible, and either blow away the second level entirely (which would give you enviable acoustics, due to the wonderfully high ceilings), or keep it just for storage. You are on a very, very tight budget, so I'd keep it all as simple as possible: just isolate your one-and-only room using the "room within a room" principle, and spend the rest of the money on treating it as well as possible.

And don't forget HVAC.... that alone is going to eat a huge chunk out of your budget. (Yes, you DO need it!)

- Stuart -

[murmajesty]

Wow! Cool...Thanks for getting back to me, Stuart. There have been a few developments since my original post, which I'll get to in a bit...

Yeah, but you live in MONTREAL! I'm betting it was so damn freezing outside that they did not want to die frozen while waking over to your place to complain... Or maybe they DID die frozen, and you just didn't find the bodies yet ...

Indeed, lol.

OK, but waht is underneath the siding? It must be attached to something. Is there a vapor barrier in there any place? Insulation? Some type of backing, such as OSB? Something else?

There is a vapor barrier, some styrofoam insulation and osb/plywood. The plan is to insulate interior walls with roxul.

There could be some insulation behind the wood paneling that I can see but I’m not entirely certain what the make up is.

You really should investigate, to find out for sure. It's important...

There is a layer of insulation, some styrofoam on the upper level...

careful there! If you don't understand structures, then don't demo anything at all! Sometimes things that don't "seem to be" structural really are, and things that really looks structural might not be. Better birng in an expert to take a look at that, and tell you what you can and cannot take off.

We were fairly conservative in what we took out which is the main reason why the second level floor joists remain. It's entirely possible that if we were to remove them prior to structural reinforcement measures, the building could really start to have some problems!

If I'm understanding that photo right, then ... You had a structural guy in there, and he didn't notice the huge, glaring issue with those joists???? Joists are NEVER laid twisted over 45° with an edge down: they are always laid vertically. And they are always laid IN the depressions prepared for them in the walls, not NEXT to them. That joist appears to have warped out of place majestically... it's going to need some major work to get that safe again.

On the other hand, I'm having a real hard time understanding your photos: some seem to be rotated sideways, or even upside down... maybe you could check them, and make sure they are all oriented correctly?

09. int. slab 2.JPG

The photo in question is when looking down at the slab where it meets the wall. And yes the structural guy, though not too alarmed, did point out that we have to reinforce all the walls within and gave instruction how to do it. Yeah; this building possibly predates WW2 and in some areas looks a bit DIY. The construction guys I'm working with are also aware of some of the glaring issues we need to address before going too deep.

And don't forget HVAC.... that alone is going to eat a huge chunk out of your budget. (Yes, you DO need it!)

yes it is looking like one room is the way to go for sure. and having a simple deck for a bit of extra space is possible. The HVAC is an area that I am really wondering about most. I've gone in there this summer and man does it ever get crazy hot and stuffy, without any gear in it! What is the best most economical direction I can take? When you say "eat a chunk of your budget" like how much?? You're scarin me man! lol..

Also wondering about the electrical. Turns out my house has a 200 amp breaker box. The plan is to splinter off it, send a cable over to the garage and have another box there. I've read about the "star ground system" but I'm no electrician. Any other considerations I should inquire about?

Thanks again!!!!
Murray aka murmajesty

[djippy]

Hello! first time I post on this forum as well, just because I like your garage...

With your kind of space, what I would try to do is just one big room (as Stuart mentionned), with probably a mezzanine only to store stuff...

Something with the idea of the Studio PM live room... (see picture) (without the windows, and with the desk the same room, directly on concrete and no fancy stuff except guitars on the wall)

I hope you can figure something out, and that you will have a nice rehearsing space. I'll check your progress on this thread.

Montreal is nice... At some point I would love to have my own space as well in here.