Basement Studio

[marc777]

Hey guys this is my first post. I am looking to build a home studio. Right now I am in 1 large room and would like to split that room into a mix room, tracking room and a vocal/amp room, if room allows. I am absolutely new to studio design and build, but I am just gonna go for it.
I am posting a sketchup diagram of the empty room. I know from what I from what I have read so far, is that the dimensions matter for the control room, and I really want to have some really great sounding rooms. I do have more space to expand into, but I really need to get into a good mix room, because I have some work I need to get out.
The room I am in now is 22x23, I have a storage closet that I am tearing out and that will give me 5ft more, which is included in the diagram.
I have read many post and I believe I grasps most of the concepts. I am not real good with sketch up,as you will see, but I downloaded it a couple days ago and I am trying to learn it.
My monitors are Focal Be6's and I will give more specs later on other equipment, but it seems that they are the most important in the mix room, as far as equipment. I know that getting the room to sound great with them will require much more work.
Also, I am trying to keep down some of the noise so I can mix late at night, you know the wife doesn't like it loud....lol
Any help would be appreciated.

[marc777]

First layout, Not sure what size a decent control room or live room should be, but I put it in the sketch. I did not have a chance to label the rooms, i'm still trying to decide which room should go where. LOL. So indecisive, trying to think of good flow, not as easy as these guys make it look.
The stairs into the first room is going to be the mix room, I think, large room to left will be live room, and the 2 rooms in upper right are going to be vocal and machine room, computer...etc.
the rooms to the left are the sump room(with circle in it) and restroom, don't think i'm gonna do anything to those rooms, just gonna make them more modern. The entrance to those 2 rooms is hard to figure out, I really want to make it all transition well.
There is an area up under the steps that is probably 4'X10' but it slants as the steps go down, I use it now for my cpu/amps if needed. I will have acid stained concrete floors throughout.
I hope to hear back soon, cause i'm ready to build, lol, like its gonna be quick or something.
Thanx
marc

Had a few minutes so I added names to sketch

[Soundman2020]

Hi Marc, and Welcome!

I downloaded your SketchUp file, but it was done in V14 and I haven't upgraded mine yet, as I have current projects that I'm still doing in the old version. Maybe you could post some images taken from the SketchUp model?

I am absolutely new to studio design and build, but I am just gonna go for it.

Before you do that, I'd suggest that you read two books first: "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest (that's sort of the Bible for acoustics), and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais.

I am not real good with sketch up,as you will see, but I downloaded it a couple days ago and I am trying to learn it.

It takes a while to get the hang of it. But take a look at some of the video tutorials out there: they can really help you grasp the concepts quickly.

Also, I am trying to keep down some of the noise so I can mix late at night,

You need to put a number to that: How many decibels of isolation do you need? That's the Number One Big Question that you need to answer.

Not sure what size a decent control room or live room should be,

The ITU and EBU specs for control rooms differ slightly, but they both agree that about 20 square meters is the minimum. That's roughly 215 square feet. However, that does not mean that you can't still have a great room with less area: you can. That's just the recommended minimum for optimum acoustics. If you go smaller, you can still get a great room: it will just be harder to get there.

- Stuart -

[marc777]

Thanks for the reply, I will check out the books. Pic below does not have measurements, still learning, and i'm not sure how to get them on there yet. I know by using the measurement tool that the mix/control room is 15'5" x 14'8", the live room is 15'10" X 11'10, and vox booth is around 8'10" x 5'. I know these are going to change and be tweaked, so if you see anything you would change or move please let me know.
Thanks
marc

[Soundman2020]

know by using the measurement tool that the mix/control room is 15'5" x 14'8",

What about the height? Sound is 3D, not just 2D...

Also, use Bog Golds' calculator to see if your room ratio is good:

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

- Stuart -

[marc777]

The ceilings will be 7'9". And I did check that link out, not going to say I understand it all but I'm sure it's like everything else, it get's easier with time.
I really stink at the design part! I bet I have drawn it 30 different ways to get it to flow right. I think I understand the way I'm going to build it much better than laying it out. Coming out of the stairway seems hard to incorporate. I also thought about taking some of the closet under the stairs and opening it up maybe into an amp room or vox room. I really don't have a preference which way it is all layed out, I just want to have a good design before I get going.
I know that I'm going double stud on the inner walls and single stud against the concrete block with a 1" gap in between both. Double 5/8 sheetrock and GG on ceiling and walls with hat channel and resilient clips, not sure about the soffit mount yet, because I haven't seen many focals in soffits, seems like they are always on or close to the desk, but if you think they would benefit the room then I will do the soffits.
Concrete floor is going to be stained and I'm still unsure on the lighting, saw a thread where they had the lighting on the sides pointed up against the walls, I really liked that.
Going to contact an HVAC guy to make sure I have all I need there.
thanks for your reply,
marc

[MarcoR]

How will you deal with bass trapping in the corner that serves as the entrance of the mix room?
I have the same issue...

[marc777]

Not really all that sure about bass trapping yet.....but as I start my build, I am going to be reading a lot!
I did contact Focal and ask about them being soffit mounted, and their reply was "it should be fine and they have seen plenty of them in soffits". So one question down.
When I use the room modes calculator,( My dimensions are 16ftx12x7.9), am I trying to tweak the numbers and get the best curve shape and then apply that dimension to my build OR do I set my dimensions(the planned room) and it(the calculator) tells me the frequencies I need to try and tame leading me to the amount and type of treatment?
2nd question is a newbie question...If I build a rectangle room, and then I add my soffits, bass trapping and other diffusion/clouds etc, is my room size the same size figuratively speaking? Or does it change as you add the false walls and absorption/diffusion etc?
The reason I ask that is, when I punch in my numbers for my room size and it gives me my info and I start building the absorption, will it affect it a lot or is that where the room analyzing comes into play?
Sorry for the newbie questions, but I want to know before I start so I will know if I need to make my control room a little bigger.
If anyone sees anything in my design that they would change please chime in, cause I don't want to waste money on a build I am going to get tired of. Also, as soon as design is complete, demo begins..........I know it's going be a lot of work, but the agony is going to be worth it.
Would it benefit me if I just paid someone to design it instead of wasting my afternoons trying to learn the programs, cause I really need to be mixing after I get off work. P.Ms welcome.
marc

[MarcoR]

2nd question is a newbie question...If I build a rectangle room, and then I add my soffits, bass trapping and other diffusion/clouds etc, is my room size the same size figuratively speaking? Or does it change as you add the false walls and absorption/diffusion etc?
The reason I ask that is, when I punch in my numbers for my room size and it gives me my info and I start building the absorption, will it affect it a lot or is that where the room analyzing comes into play?

The experts seem to be a little busy this week but there is a very good answer to this question in this thread:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=18068

[Soundman2020]

I bet I have drawn it 30 different ways to get it to flow right.

Great! So now you only have another 50 or 60 ways left to try...

Seriously, you are definitely going about this the RIGHT way: Many people don't do that, and they end up with mediocre rooms. Try every single option you can think of, to make certain you didn't miss any possibilities, then take a closer look at the best 3 and tweak them some more, until one stands out above the others. That's the approach I often use for designing studios.

I did contact Focal and ask about them being soffit mounted, and their reply was "it should be fine and they have seen plenty of them in soffits". So one question down.

Great! One more decision out of the way, and that's a good decision. soffit-mounting is probably the single most important thing you can do to improve the overall acoustics of the room, and get it sounding as good as it can.

When I use the room modes calculator,( My dimensions are 16ftx12x7.9), am I trying to tweak the numbers and get the best curve shape and then apply that dimension to my build OR do I set my dimensions(the planned room) and it(the calculator) tells me the frequencies I need to try and tame leading me to the amount and type of treatment?

First take a look at the three BBC Critical tests. If you fail on any of those, then try again. Once those are all saying "pass", then compare your actual room ratio to the "closest match", and see where you are. If you are coming in close to one of the top 10, then you are doing OK. If you are in the top 5, the go buy a lottery ticket, before your lucky streak runs out...

Finally, as a last check, look at the Bonello plot and make sure there are no major "knees" in the curve. tiny dips are OK, as long as you are meeting all the other criteria.

That's all you need to be worried about. There is NO NEED AT ALL to try tweaking your dimensions down to tiny fractions of an inch, in order to get your ratio "perfect". There is no such thing as a perfect ratio, so you can never get there. As long as you are far away form the bad ratios and close to a good one, you are fine.

Here's another calculator that shows you your ratio as compared to the "Bolt Area". Bolt is the name of a scientist who did a lot of theoretical work on room acoustics, and that shaded area is what he came up with as containing the best ratios. If your ratio falls inside that area, then you are done:

http://amroc.andymel.eu/

2nd question is a newbie question...If I build a rectangle room, and then I add my soffits, bass trapping and other diffusion/clouds etc, is my room size the same size figuratively speaking? Or does it change as you add the false walls and absorption/diffusion etc?

Bass trapping does not change the room dimensions, but soffits do. Soffits are hard, solid, rigid, massive surfaces at the front end of the room, and they become the new front wall, so take all your measurements to those.

Since soffits are angled, you can no longer use those typical ratio calculators, as they only apply to rectangular rooms. As soon as you angle a wall, or change the number of walls, then they are no longer accurate. You can still get a rough idea of how the room will behave by using the average dimensions, but it won't be accurate. But that's OK! You'll have to measure the room response in any case, once it is completed, because reality doesn't always match prediction: It is far better to measure how the room is ACTUALLY responding and design treatment for that, rather than to just hope that it worked out he way theory said...

The reason I ask that is, when I punch in my numbers for my room size and it gives me my info and I start building the absorption, will it affect it a lot or is that where the room analyzing comes into play?

Absorption does not change the hard boundary surfaces of the room, which is what modal response and room ratios are all about. Low frequency waves go right through the absorption, hit the wall, and come back again, so it is the wall location that matters, not the front surface of the absorber.

(That said, the front surface of the absorber is what you use for calculations involving absorption! Just to confuse you... )

Would it benefit me if I just paid someone to design it instead of wasting my afternoons trying to learn the programs, cause I really need to be mixing after I get off work.

That is always an option, of course, and there are a couple of us here on the forum who offer that service. Or you can learn how to do it yourself, and save money!

Realistically, it takes about three to six months or so to learn the basics of acoustics well enough that you can design your own place successfully, then another three to six months to actually design it. After that, you can start building. So if you need to start building before May 2015, then it might be an idea to hire someone to design it for you. A good designer can probably have it done inside a couple of months, maximum (unless you have unusual requirements). But if you have the time to learn and do it yourself, then that's great! You'll have a really good understanding of how your studio actually works acoustically if you do that, which is always good to know when you are mixing.

So those are your choices: save money and spend the time to do it your self, or save time and spend the money to have someone do it for you...

If you want to learn yourself, then I'd suggest these two books to get you started: "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest (that's sort of the Bible for acoustics), and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais. They are both available on Amazon.com., and many other places.

The experts seem to be a little busy this week but there is a very good answer to this question in this thread:

Thanks for posting that, Marco! an excellent find... I had forgotten that I even wrote that!


- Stuart -

[MarcoR]

The experts seem to be a little busy this week but there is a very good answer to this question in this thread:

Thanks for posting that, Marco! an excellent find... I had forgotten that I even wrote that!

No problem Stuart! So much great information here. If you get a chance to check my thread, I had a few questions too.

Marc777, I will be following your thread as our goals are very similar. You can follow mine for what not to do

I'm also reading "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais now...

[marc777]

Finally, Time to go to work. I am tweaking a few things but I have started cleaning out my room and demo is being done. This is the updated version of studio. Feel free to interject any words of wisdom concerning layout or another way to lay it out as I still have a little time to tweak.
I am still working out HVAC but can't seem to get anyone to come out and give a qoute. Frustrating! I have thought of some things on my own but there are still some holes in my thought process.
As you come to the bottom of the stairs, I have decided to open it up to the room on the right, which will just be a room for hanging out at this time, unless someone sees that I need that space. So since I dont need to come into the studio on the left it may open me up to utilize the space where the hallway is.
Where the iso booth will be, I am going to use some of the space underneath the stairs for treatment and I also thought it may give it a different vibe.
Around the perimeter of the block there is a 1 in gap between block and studs. And also a 1 in gap in between control room and live room. I havent completed my sketchup to scale because I wanted to finalize plan before I really did spacing on studs.
Not sure if I am going to do glass, cause I dont know how in the world I could get it to flow right except between control room and live room. So i am probably gonna do cctv.(not sure how much trouble that is)
Also I will be using green glue in between double 5/8 drywall. Ceiling height will be 7'9", which will have double 5/8 drywall with gg, IB-1 clips and hat channel. R-13 or 19, with at least 2 layers of 1/2 drywall against sub floor.(im salvaging what i am taking down from exsisting room).
Are my room sizes big enough to capture great sounds? Because not only do I want it to look amazing, I want it to sound awesome.
thx

[marc777]

HVAC guy finally came by and some of the news was really good, he did find a couple of problems but he thought I could do a couple of things without spending a ton of money, which was even better.
Checked on doing zones, very expensive. Have an option of doing mini splits, it's not cheap but has some really good features. I could add another system, but to tear out some of my old to make room would be very costly. Lastly, just using my system, which turned out to be larger than I thought, adding a fresh air line, adding returns from each room and a couple more ducts.
He talked about using flex and routing it so that it has bends and turns for noise reduction, but I believe I want to still add silencers. Any thoughts?
He is going to redo all of the math for me and get my upstairs and downstairs doing what it is supposed to. First HVAC person around here that I have talked to that understood my needs.
That out of the way, its time to finish demo and get my electrician out here.
pics coming soon.

[Soundman2020]

Have an option of doing mini splits, it's not cheap but has some really good features

Mini splits work well in studios. A good option. Just make sure that you get a very quiet model for the interior units!

Lastly, just using my system, which turned out to be larger than I thought, adding a fresh air line, adding returns from each room and a couple more ducts.

That's also a great option, if you have enough unused capacity in the existing system.

He talked about using flex and routing it so that it has bends and turns for noise reduction,

Ummmmm... sorry, but you can't do that with flex duct. Or rather you can, but it won't do what you are expecting. You need several tight 90° bends, but if you try that with flex duct, you kink it, constrict it, and greatly reduce the internal cross section, thus greatly increasing the air flow velocity, and greatly increasing turbulence, as well as adding considerable static pressure to the system. Not a good idea! Flex duct is fine for long straight runs, provided that it is stretched out correctly to its full length, and supported correctly, but not so fine for tight turns.

but I believe I want to still add silencers. Any thoughts?

Absolutely!

He is going to redo all of the math for me and get my upstairs and downstairs doing what it is supposed to.

Great! it would be good if you post his final numbers here, for checking. Is he aware that the flow velocity at the registers should never exceed 300 fps, and should preferably be about half of that? If not, then the air flow itself makes a noise...

That out of the way, its time to finish demo and get my electrician out here.

Great! Don't forget to insist that he wire your studio with star grounding, and that you can have only one single wall penetration in each room, where the main feed comes in. From that point on, all the interior electrics within the room must be done surface-mounted, with no wall penetrations.

pics coming soon.

as the saying goes: "Pics, or it didn't happen!"


- Stuart -

[marc777]

Demo almost finished, Green Glue arrived and final tweaks to design are happening. I am almost there. Will post pics later today.
I do have a question, when adding my mass to the sub floor from upstairs, can I add 1 layer of sheetrock to sub floor then add green glue to my second layer of sheetrock or should green glue go on both layer?
A couple of good things have came from the demo, found small water leak from upstairs bathtub, and some of the wiring(previous owners did) was not properly tied together, some had knicks, and some dangling and live but just cut and left. Suprised house has not burned down..........Oh and I found a glade plugin that was plugged in to a recepticle I did not know was there and has been there above the basement ceiling for at least 14yrs because thats how long i've lived here......scary!