Hi everyone,
I recently moved house, and unfortunately there is only 1 room in my new apartment that is in any way suitable for a small home studio. All other rooms have terrible natural acoustics (concrete floor etc.) and no space at all for my equipment.
Luckily enough I have a facility available for all recording work, so I only need a control room (is that the right word) for all mixing/mastering and Synth/DAW work. No Recording will be done in the room.
Now, facts about the room. Dimensions: 325cm L x 125cm W x 215cm H. Two walls are out of thick brickwork (2 load bearing walls) and the other two walls are out of concrete. The floor is made of wooden planks. There is one small window in the room, around 1.20m from the back of the room at 1.5m height (window is 50cmx50cmx50cm). I attached a picture below.
I will be mixing a lot of bass heavy music in the room as well as some very quiet accoustic music. I am not sure about the speaker size yet (should I post a separate post in the speaker section?). I was planning on having a 150cm x 75cm workdesk at the top of the room (picture below)
I was also considering putting a small sofa or Beanbags (fatboys) in the back of the room, but I wasn't sure on the affects this would have on the sound of the room.
The Budget I have to transform the room is ~€250
Now, my questions:
1. Do you think the room generally has potential, or will my investment be a waste of money?
2. Would seating in the back be good/bad for the sound?
3. What/How much sound insulation (right word) do I need to make the room sound better and to minimize the natural room echo?
4. Will the window have big negative effects on the Sound?
5. What size speaker would be too big? (Sorry if this is the wrong section of the forum).
I hope you can help me!
Small Room turned into Studio/ Control room (No Recording!)
Moderators: Aaronw, kendale, John Sayers
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THB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:33 am
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
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THB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:33 am
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
Re: Small Room turned into Studio/ Control room (No Recordin
I just realized that I left out a few things when writing the initial post.
This room is not designed for commercial use, but for private use only. Therefore it does not have to be ideal. It is designed for me to have fun and to create the best sound reference possible for me. I read that studios should have at least 42m³ volume, but that is unfortunately just not possible for me. I could already (almost completely) get rid off the little rectangular space at the bottom left of the above sketch by adding a wall/door combination to create an almost completely rectangular main room. The gap is now only ~10cm large.
Basically, I ran the dimensions through a few (to me confusing) room tests. I got the following results for the bonello distribution. The blue bars are the actual modes, and the red bars the ideal modes. From what I read, the distribution is not ideal, but acceptable. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
My actual main question is: How can I optimize the room with my budget, so that I get as much of a neutral sound as possible and no unwanted reverbation of certain frequencies.
I have no idea what treatment is needed, and the other posts I was reading didn't really help my understanding of how to tackle the problem areas of the room.
I hope I obeyed the rules and someone can help me.
This room is not designed for commercial use, but for private use only. Therefore it does not have to be ideal. It is designed for me to have fun and to create the best sound reference possible for me. I read that studios should have at least 42m³ volume, but that is unfortunately just not possible for me. I could already (almost completely) get rid off the little rectangular space at the bottom left of the above sketch by adding a wall/door combination to create an almost completely rectangular main room. The gap is now only ~10cm large.
Basically, I ran the dimensions through a few (to me confusing) room tests. I got the following results for the bonello distribution. The blue bars are the actual modes, and the red bars the ideal modes. From what I read, the distribution is not ideal, but acceptable. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
My actual main question is: How can I optimize the room with my budget, so that I get as much of a neutral sound as possible and no unwanted reverbation of certain frequencies.
I have no idea what treatment is needed, and the other posts I was reading didn't really help my understanding of how to tackle the problem areas of the room.
I hope I obeyed the rules and someone can help me.
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Soundman2020
- Site Admin
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- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
- Location: Santiago, Chile
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Re: Small Room turned into Studio/ Control room (No Recordin
Hi "THB", and welcome to the forum! 
That said, it is a very, very small room, so it will have serious modal issues that will need treating. The dimensions pass the basic acid test, so it should be usable, but at only 1.25m wide you won't have enough space to have good bass trapping, and you also won't have enough space to get your speakers suitably far apart such that you an have a good sound stage and clear stereo imaging.
But once again, if that's the only room you have, then it's better than no room at all.
Then you'll need very large amounts of bass trapping in the room corners. A room has 12 corners. Since your vertical corners might not be enough, or might not be usable, I would shoot for using the wall/ceiling corners mostly, and also perhaps some of the wall/floor corners, if possible. I would also use the Superchunk style trap for that room. Once again, search the forum for "Superchunk" to find out how to build those.
Finally, you'll need treatment on your first reflection points, and on your front and rear walls.
The room is far too small for most types of diffuser, so you are pretty much limited to absorption only.
http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm
http://amroc.andymel.eu/
- Stuart -
Actually, concrete is pretty much the best possible floor you could have for a studio! If you rejected a room based on that criteria alone, you might want to re-think that. It's hard to beat concrete for studio flooring.All other rooms have terrible natural acoustics (concrete floor etc.)
That's most likely a bad thing. Wood planks imply an air gap and an underlying subfloor, meaning that your room will basically be built on top of a drum: a taught membrane (the wood planks) stretched across a resonant cavity (the air space under the floor). That will resonate at specific frequencies (which you could calculate if you wanted). Not nice.The floor is made of wooden planks.
Excellent! You should get great isolation from that room. Except maybe for the floor. But what about the ceiling, and the roof above?Two walls are out of thick brickwork (2 load bearing walls) and the other two walls are out of concrete.
It's best to keep all your questions about your build all together in the same thread. Otherwise later on, when you (or others) want to refer back to those questions and answers, you might not be able to find them.I am not sure about the speaker size yet (should I post a separate post in the speaker section?).
A sofa would be great.I was also considering putting a small sofa or Beanbags (fatboys) in the back of the room, but I wasn't sure on the affects this would have on the sound of the room.
That should be OK for the most basic treatment, to start getting the room in shape, but you should probably plan to increase that in the future to complete the treatment.The Budget I have to transform the room is ~€250
If that's the only room you have, and the amount of budget you have, then that's what it will be! It won't be Abbey Road, of course, but it will certainly be heaps better than no room at all!1. Do you think the room generally has potential, or will my investment be a waste of money?
That said, it is a very, very small room, so it will have serious modal issues that will need treating. The dimensions pass the basic acid test, so it should be usable, but at only 1.25m wide you won't have enough space to have good bass trapping, and you also won't have enough space to get your speakers suitably far apart such that you an have a good sound stage and clear stereo imaging.
But once again, if that's the only room you have, then it's better than no room at all.
Probably good, perhaps neutral, but very unlikely to be bad.2. Would seating in the back be good/bad for the sound?
First, you need to get your room geometry correct, meaning the location of the speakers and your head. Search the forum for "geometry", and you'll come up with more than enough threads on the subject to keep you reading for a while!3. What/How much sound insulation (right word) do I need to make the room sound better and to minimize the natural room echo?
Then you'll need very large amounts of bass trapping in the room corners. A room has 12 corners. Since your vertical corners might not be enough, or might not be usable, I would shoot for using the wall/ceiling corners mostly, and also perhaps some of the wall/floor corners, if possible. I would also use the Superchunk style trap for that room. Once again, search the forum for "Superchunk" to find out how to build those.
Finally, you'll need treatment on your first reflection points, and on your front and rear walls.
The room is far too small for most types of diffuser, so you are pretty much limited to absorption only.
Probably not: it seems to be far enough back that it won't affect your first reflection points.4. Will the window have big negative effects on the Sound?
It's not just size that you should be considering, but also frequency response, dispersion angles, off-axis response, and overall quality; In a room like that, you wouldn't be able to fit in anything larger than about 8", max., and probably more like 6", so I'd be looking at something like Adam F5 or A5X, or something similar from Genelec, such as a G-Three or M030.5. What size speaker would be too big? (Sorry if this is the wrong section of the forum).
Use Bob Golds' calculator; it gives you a lot more useful detail. Or Andy Mel's "Amroc" calculator. Also very highly recommended:Basically, I ran the dimensions through a few (to me confusing) room tests. I got the following results for the bonello distribution
http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm
http://amroc.andymel.eu/
- Stuart -
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THB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:33 am
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
Re: Small Room turned into Studio/ Control room (No Recordin
Thanks for the reply.
The wooden planks do have a lot of air gaps under them and between them as they are rather loose and quite old.
I naturally thought concrete was a bad surface, but with that new info, a new possibility opens up. In the last day, i completely turned the planning around and I am now thinking of using my kitchen/living room as a studio space instead. At first it sounded like a terrible idea, but the more I think about it the more sense it makes.
I usually do rather large chunks of studio work over a couple of weeks, so I don't mind not having the gear in there permanently, but moving it in and out.
So, My Kitchen/Living room is 5409mm x 4369mm x 2450mm (LxWxH) (Not including the kitchen bit. Length is measured from the back of the room to the front of the cupboards) resulting in a volume of 57.92m³. The ratio is 1:1.78:2.21. All walls are think brickwork covered in plaster. Below is a sketch of the room. I included the proposed layout of my 1500mm x 750mm work desk, the speaker positioning in red (Based on Adam F7),my head position and the first reflection points in blue.
Here's a breakdown of the first reflection points:
There grey box at the back represents an excavation in the wall for a fireplace. It is 1200mm high and 550mm deep.
Like in the other room, there is no sofa/bean bag in the room (yet), but I am planning on putting one in there. There is also a kitchen table, which will more than likely be moved for the time I am using the room as a studio.
I am also planning on making all wall absorbtion "good looking" so it can be installed permanently without making the room like like a studio. I have already read a few threads on covering insulation (mineral whool) in fabric for that.
The window is a good bit behind the first reflection point as well, so I assumed it wouldn't be a problem either. The
The problem I see is the small entrance "room" that is connected to the bottom right. I tried to work around it by placing the speakers at around the same height the entrance to that little room starts, so all deflections are away from it. Could it still be a problem? Here's a closeup of the extra room and its connection to the main room (there's no door):
Another problem I can see is the Kitchen area behind the workdesk and the speakers. I attached a photo to show it, as it is hard to explain the layout:
The cupboards are all wooden, while the back face and the workplace are covered with a 2mm think aluminum layer.
The speakers would be at the same height as the aluminum backwall.
Here's another layout with everythings at the back:
So, quick summary of my questions:
1. Is the room suited better than the small other one. I think yes. It is also handier for me.
2. Would the small entrance area have big negative effects?
3. What about the kitchen area? Will it affect the sound negatively?
4. Would everything at the back be the better position?
4. Making the sound panels for the first point of reflection a little bit bigger than they have to be, so they can be in the center of a wall does no harm, right?
5. Unfortunately I still don't understand the modes of a room and therefore have no idea what frequencies need to be treated. Any help?
The wooden planks do have a lot of air gaps under them and between them as they are rather loose and quite old.
I naturally thought concrete was a bad surface, but with that new info, a new possibility opens up. In the last day, i completely turned the planning around and I am now thinking of using my kitchen/living room as a studio space instead. At first it sounded like a terrible idea, but the more I think about it the more sense it makes.
I usually do rather large chunks of studio work over a couple of weeks, so I don't mind not having the gear in there permanently, but moving it in and out.
So, My Kitchen/Living room is 5409mm x 4369mm x 2450mm (LxWxH) (Not including the kitchen bit. Length is measured from the back of the room to the front of the cupboards) resulting in a volume of 57.92m³. The ratio is 1:1.78:2.21. All walls are think brickwork covered in plaster. Below is a sketch of the room. I included the proposed layout of my 1500mm x 750mm work desk, the speaker positioning in red (Based on Adam F7),my head position and the first reflection points in blue.
Here's a breakdown of the first reflection points:
There grey box at the back represents an excavation in the wall for a fireplace. It is 1200mm high and 550mm deep.
Like in the other room, there is no sofa/bean bag in the room (yet), but I am planning on putting one in there. There is also a kitchen table, which will more than likely be moved for the time I am using the room as a studio.
I am also planning on making all wall absorbtion "good looking" so it can be installed permanently without making the room like like a studio. I have already read a few threads on covering insulation (mineral whool) in fabric for that.
The window is a good bit behind the first reflection point as well, so I assumed it wouldn't be a problem either. The
The problem I see is the small entrance "room" that is connected to the bottom right. I tried to work around it by placing the speakers at around the same height the entrance to that little room starts, so all deflections are away from it. Could it still be a problem? Here's a closeup of the extra room and its connection to the main room (there's no door):
Another problem I can see is the Kitchen area behind the workdesk and the speakers. I attached a photo to show it, as it is hard to explain the layout:
The cupboards are all wooden, while the back face and the workplace are covered with a 2mm think aluminum layer.
The speakers would be at the same height as the aluminum backwall.
Here's another layout with everythings at the back:
So, quick summary of my questions:
1. Is the room suited better than the small other one. I think yes. It is also handier for me.
2. Would the small entrance area have big negative effects?
3. What about the kitchen area? Will it affect the sound negatively?
4. Would everything at the back be the better position?
4. Making the sound panels for the first point of reflection a little bit bigger than they have to be, so they can be in the center of a wall does no harm, right?
5. Unfortunately I still don't understand the modes of a room and therefore have no idea what frequencies need to be treated. Any help?
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THB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:33 am
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
Re: Small Room turned into Studio/ Control room (No Recordin
Another question:
1.What other treatment is advised? As I cant work the room modes, I am not sure which frequencies need to be treated and how much treatment is needed.
Are bass traps always advisable anyway, or just in certain cases? And how are they positioned best?
Also, the speakers are straight in the designs, but are actually meant to be angled to form an equilateral triangle just behind the listening position .
1.What other treatment is advised? As I cant work the room modes, I am not sure which frequencies need to be treated and how much treatment is needed.
Are bass traps always advisable anyway, or just in certain cases? And how are they positioned best?
Also, the speakers are straight in the designs, but are actually meant to be angled to form an equilateral triangle just behind the listening position .
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THB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:33 am
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
Re: Small Room turned into Studio/ Control room (No Recordin
Here's another update of my plans.
I am now planning on using Rocksilk RS60 insulation for my absorption panels, as I can't find cheap 703 in Europe/Ireland and the rocksilk is meant to be the best alternative. Shipping just makes the 703 too expensive.
The RS60 is available in 1200x600x50mm units.
The arrangement of 10 units would look like this:
Three 50mm panels side by side to cover up the kitchen area, one 50mm panel on each side first reflection point, one 50mm panel at the back reflection point, and one 100mm (ie. two 50mm on top of each other) in each back corner as bass traps.
Due to its geometry, it would be easy to cover up the kitchen are like this:
Above the listening position on the ceiling, I am planning on installing EQ accoustic classic tiles. I can't drill into the ceiling, and one of my absorbers will be to heavy to glue or fix with velcro, so I will use velcro and the EQ tiles instead.
I also did some more research on the speakers, and came to the conclusion that the Yamaha HS7 or HS8 would probably be the best speaker for me. I went to give it a listen, and it really convinced me, just unsure about the size.
I still have no idea what to do with the little side room, and how it would impact the sound.
I am now planning on using Rocksilk RS60 insulation for my absorption panels, as I can't find cheap 703 in Europe/Ireland and the rocksilk is meant to be the best alternative. Shipping just makes the 703 too expensive.
The RS60 is available in 1200x600x50mm units.
The arrangement of 10 units would look like this:
Three 50mm panels side by side to cover up the kitchen area, one 50mm panel on each side first reflection point, one 50mm panel at the back reflection point, and one 100mm (ie. two 50mm on top of each other) in each back corner as bass traps.
Due to its geometry, it would be easy to cover up the kitchen are like this:
Above the listening position on the ceiling, I am planning on installing EQ accoustic classic tiles. I can't drill into the ceiling, and one of my absorbers will be to heavy to glue or fix with velcro, so I will use velcro and the EQ tiles instead.
I also did some more research on the speakers, and came to the conclusion that the Yamaha HS7 or HS8 would probably be the best speaker for me. I went to give it a listen, and it really convinced me, just unsure about the size.
I still have no idea what to do with the little side room, and how it would impact the sound.
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THB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:33 am
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
Re: Small Room turned into Studio/ Control room (No Recordin
Alright, here's everything as a 3d graphic. I apologize for my poor sketchup skills.
Green = Fully closed cupboard (3.5 cm wooden cover)
Blue = Rocksilk RS60 panels
Orange = Doors (extremely heavy and thick doors)
I just ordered a good ammount of Rocksilk RS60 and soon enough I'll order the speakers as well.
Green = Fully closed cupboard (3.5 cm wooden cover)
Blue = Rocksilk RS60 panels
Orange = Doors (extremely heavy and thick doors)
I just ordered a good ammount of Rocksilk RS60 and soon enough I'll order the speakers as well.
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THB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:33 am
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
Re: Small Room turned into Studio/ Control room (No Recordin
So it turns out that the Rocksilk RS60 is listed at some Irish retailers, but none of them actually sell it.
A friend of mine who is a builder is now looking into it for me, but I'm not quite sure what I am telling him to look for.
I had a look at this chart: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm .
I was thinking, that the bigger and the more evenly spread the absorbtion coefficients are across the spectrum, the better the insulation is for first reflection treatment?
Can someone help me out with that?
A friend of mine who is a builder is now looking into it for me, but I'm not quite sure what I am telling him to look for.
I had a look at this chart: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm .
I was thinking, that the bigger and the more evenly spread the absorbtion coefficients are across the spectrum, the better the insulation is for first reflection treatment?
Can someone help me out with that?
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Soundman2020
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Re: Small Room turned into Studio/ Control room (No Recordin
To a certain extent, yes, but absorbers for first reflection points will be dealing mostly with mid-range frequencies, so look for whatever has the best coefficients of absorption in the mids.I was thinking, that the bigger and the more evenly spread the absorbtion coefficients are across the spectrum, the better the insulation is for first reflection treatment?
- Stuart -