Hello all!
Long time lurker first time poster here... So long story short we have to move our current studio to a new location. We found new rooms and pre-build demolition is going on... And since we are going to be staying there for a long time I thought I'll run my ideas by you guys just to be sure ....I have mocked up a new design for the studio and would love your input on it....
We want to keep as much of the old stuff as possible... it's been working out very nicely thanks to the info I gathered here before we built it....
This is what we had now:
http://www.roundsound.ee/studio.html
You can see the control room which we hope to move, but make it a little bigger...
Problem is we have a couple of rehearsal rooms above us and there is a little bit of drum bleed from the ceiling as it is....
My main objective is to get the iso booths as well isolated as possible... The live room will probably have some bleed-through which we'll have to live with... SInce the boilding is mostly old old limes-stonand bricks I would like to use as little drywall as possible and keep the existing walls as a design element....
This is what I have come up with:
New rooms:
Basic idea:
Studio closeup:
Live room side view:
Cables and ducts:
I would use a similar double ceiling as on control room above the iso booths...
Thank you guys in advance,
Keijo
Will this work?
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Re: Will this work?
Hi there Keijo, and welcome to the forum!
That's a pretty ambitious project you have there, and a nice space to do it in.
The easiest way to get high levels of isolation is with two-leaf walls, where your brick could be one leaf, and the other leaf would be built a short distance away, decoupled, and with a fair amount of mass on it. Materials for that second leaf are typically: drywall, OBS, MDF, plywood, or (drum-roll please!) Glass! Yup, you could have glass walls in front of your brick walls, so you could still see their natural beauty. That would be one option.
You say that you want to make it bigger, but do be careful there! VERY careful!
One thing you should be aware of, is that Wes's designs don't scale well, since they are very much based on musical scales. So a good Wes Lachot room might sound fantastic as built by him, but if you then take the same idea and try to scale it up or down to fit in a room that is, say 20% longer, or 8% higher, or 15% wider, or 17% smaller all around, or whatever, then very likely the result will be terrible. Not because Wes is a lousy designer! (On the contrary, he's among the best.) But the entire system he uses for designing his rooms works on the basis of musical relationships, and scaling those just does not work. To get an idea of why scaling a Wes Lachot room is a bad idea, try tuning your guitar 15% higher on all strings, and see how it sounds.... Even worse, tune one string 15% higher, and another 20% lower, then play your favorite song...
So if that is one of his designs, then you MUST do it identically again in all aspects, no changes at all, not even one inch. If you wanted a bigger studio, you'd have to have it totally re-designed to fit the new space.
On the other hand, if it is not one of his, then it MIGHT scale OK.... but "caveat emptor"! Studio design is a lot more complex than many people realize, and what looks good on paper might sound terrible in practice, and simply scaling things up or down usually has disastrous results.
You might already be aware of all of the above, but if not, then hopefully you'll take it into account with your new facility.
By the way, your basic plan looks fine, but there might be other, alternative layouts that make sense: Have you tried many different things?
- Stuart -
That's a pretty ambitious project you have there, and a nice space to do it in.
That's one of the reasons why we never recommend placing studios on upper floors: it is extremely hard to isolate. It can be done, but you need deep pockets and very careful design to achieve it. It is far better to have your entire studio on the ground floor, built directly on a concrete slab on grade. That's the simplest way of getting started for good isolation.Problem is we have a couple of rehearsal rooms above us and there is a little bit of drum bleed from the ceiling as it is....
It doesn't have to have bleed, and you don't have to live with it... it is possible to get high levels of isolation, if the isolation system is designed properly, and then built carefully, exactly to specs (no shortcuts!).The live room will probably have some bleed-through which we'll have to live with...
That might not be possible. Those brick walls look great, but they are only single-leaf walls, which do not isolate well. Depending on how thick the are, and how well they are built, you might get maybe 40 to 50 dB of isolation from them. That sounds good, but drums can easily put out 115 dB, so 50 dB doesn't go far for isolating those.SInce the boilding is mostly old old limes-stonand bricks I would like to use as little drywall as possible and keep the existing walls as a design element....
The easiest way to get high levels of isolation is with two-leaf walls, where your brick could be one leaf, and the other leaf would be built a short distance away, decoupled, and with a fair amount of mass on it. Materials for that second leaf are typically: drywall, OBS, MDF, plywood, or (drum-roll please!) Glass! Yup, you could have glass walls in front of your brick walls, so you could still see their natural beauty. That would be one option.
How much of that exists at present, and how much will be built by you? Are there any restrictions on what you can and cannot do in that place? Is it on the ground floor?This is what I have come up with:
Nice! Is that a Wes Lachot design? Or is it maybe based on one of his? It kind of looks like it... Do you want to keep the same style for your new place, or are you thinking of going in a different direction?This is what we had now: You can see the control room which we hope to move, but make it a little bigger...
You say that you want to make it bigger, but do be careful there! VERY careful!
One thing you should be aware of, is that Wes's designs don't scale well, since they are very much based on musical scales. So a good Wes Lachot room might sound fantastic as built by him, but if you then take the same idea and try to scale it up or down to fit in a room that is, say 20% longer, or 8% higher, or 15% wider, or 17% smaller all around, or whatever, then very likely the result will be terrible. Not because Wes is a lousy designer! (On the contrary, he's among the best.) But the entire system he uses for designing his rooms works on the basis of musical relationships, and scaling those just does not work. To get an idea of why scaling a Wes Lachot room is a bad idea, try tuning your guitar 15% higher on all strings, and see how it sounds.... Even worse, tune one string 15% higher, and another 20% lower, then play your favorite song...
So if that is one of his designs, then you MUST do it identically again in all aspects, no changes at all, not even one inch. If you wanted a bigger studio, you'd have to have it totally re-designed to fit the new space.
On the other hand, if it is not one of his, then it MIGHT scale OK.... but "caveat emptor"! Studio design is a lot more complex than many people realize, and what looks good on paper might sound terrible in practice, and simply scaling things up or down usually has disastrous results.
You might already be aware of all of the above, but if not, then hopefully you'll take it into account with your new facility.
By the way, your basic plan looks fine, but there might be other, alternative layouts that make sense: Have you tried many different things?
- Stuart -
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Re: Will this work?
Thank you and thanks for taking the time Stuart!Soundman2020 wrote:Hi there Keijo, and welcome to the forum!
Well since it's a long time commitment we thouht we'll try to do it rightSoundman2020 wrote:That's a pretty ambitious project you have there, and a nice space to do it in.
We have a budget of about EUR25K for just the build. I know it's not a lot but we'll try to use as much material from the old studio as possible etc.
We thought about it and we'll build a double-drywall ceiling below the rehearsal room. We can put our HVAC pipes in ther aswell.Soundman2020 wrote:It doesn't have to have bleed, and you don't have to live with it... it is possible to get high levels of isolation, if the isolation system is designed properly, and then built carefully, exactly to specs (no shortcuts!).
I'm aware of that and they are pretty thick ranging from 15cm to 1m. The wall between CR and drums is ~45cm.Soundman2020 wrote:Depending on how thick the are, and how well they are built, you might get maybe 40 to 50 dB of isolation from them. That sounds good, but drums can easily put out 115 dB, so 50 dB doesn't go far for isolating those.
We are not worried about noise going outside from the studio and outside is pretty quiet aswell, no traffic etc, just the occasional train going by at a very low speed, so we have that going for us
Thinking about doing something like this. On floating floors, because of the train. And I can build the enclosures for the soffit mounting on the existing wall so they won't be in contact with the inner room: Should I build some double walls there aswell? The rigid fiberboard is not a very good insulator but I really like how the room sounds, when it is built like this instead of having drywall walls and treat them.
All the drywall between live room and iso booths will be two-leaf double drywall with a 10cm air gap between them. So drywall-drywall-35kg/m2 insulation-airgap-35kg/m2 insulation-drywall-drywall.Soundman2020 wrote:The easiest way to get high levels of isolation is with two-leaf walls
Something like this:
This is existing: And this will be bult: We cann't really tear down any walls or make holes in the thicker walls. Even getting the permit to make the hole between CR and Booths was VERY tricky... and expensive . And yes it's on the ground floor on a ~40cm concrete slab.Soundman2020 wrote:How much of that exists at present, and how much will be built by you? Are there any restrictions on what you can and cannot do in that place? Is it on the ground floor?
Funny story about that. When we were building our first control room (really just putting some acoustic treatment on a room in a rehearsal room etc...) I had no idea who Wes was and I was just looking at pictures for design ideas on the interweb and really liked one picture. We used some elements from this picture for that and when we built the CR we have now we kind of expanded on that idea and this is what we came up with. So long story short no it's not a Wes Lachot design, I designed it myself using the info I gathered here and a picture I found on image search for Studio Design . There were some issues with room modes when we built it but we had to bite the bullet since we had no more room in the old place.Soundman2020 wrote:Nice! Is that a Wes Lachot design? Or is it maybe based on one of his? It kind of looks like it... Do you want to keep the same style for your new place, or are you thinking of going in a different direction?
You might already be aware of all of the above, but if not, then hopefully you'll take it into account with your new facility.
Now I ofcourse know who Wes is but we would still like to keep the design from current studio and expand on that for the new studio. And by making the current room bigger I could get a nice room mode and also get some more space in there.
I tried, but the walls which cann't be teared down or make holes in kind of mess everything up... And we deffinietly need storage for the bands live stuff and the "bedroom" where out of town bands can stay in so the current plan makes the most sense.Soundman2020 wrote:By the way, your basic plan looks fine, but there might be other, alternative layouts that make sense: Have you tried many different things?
I hope you now get the basic idea on where we stand and what we plan on doing so you can tell us if this is the way to go or not.
Here is a mockup I did in SketchUp for our current studio where you can see the basic shape of the current CR which I hope to make a little wider: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ou4f3zy2g2trb ... dsound.skp
Cheers,
Keijo
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Re: Will this work?
You might be one of those rare cases that do need a floating floor, but please read this first, to make sure you do it right:Thinking about doing something like this. On floating floors, because of the train.
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173
You seem to be cutting off the front corners of the room, right where those soffits should go!I can build the enclosures for the soffit mounting on the existing wall so they won't be in contact with the inner room:
You also seem to be cutting of the rear corners of the room, right where your bass trapping should go.
You should probably fix both of those.
You also show a QRD diffuser on the rear wall, but the room isn't big enough to be able to use a numeric-based diffuser. They are only suited to large rooms.
You will need to treat the room heavily in any case, since it is a small room. But if you don't need isolation, then you don't need that shaped inner-leaf either. You could just go with a plain rectangular room, and treat it correctly. But seeing you show a drum kit in the very next room, I'd say that isolation is very necessary: For me at least, I find it hard to track drums well if I can't here just the drums by themselves on my speakers alone, without any bleed coming through the walls...Should I build some double walls there aswell? The rigid fiberboard is not a very good insulator but I really like how the room sounds, when it is built like this instead of having drywall walls and treat them.
Excellent! That looks great.All the drywall between live room and iso booths will be two-leaf double drywall with a 10cm air gap between them. So drywall-drywall-35kg/m2 insulation-airgap-35kg/m2 insulation-drywall-drywall.
Something like this:
I think you mean 35 kg/m3, not 35 kg/m2!
And yes, that density is fine, provided that you are using fiberglass insulation. If you are using mineral wool, then the density should be around 50 kg/m3.
Another plus! That's good news.And yes it's on the ground floor on a ~40cm concrete slab.
Now you have the opportunity to get that part right too.There were some issues with room modes when we built it but we had to bite the bullet since we had no more room in the old place.
- Stuart -
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Re: Will this work?
Hello All, just a followup on the initial post and cry for help
We have finished the build! Two and a half months of 14hr workdays and going twice over our initial budget this is the final result:
LIVE ROOM
From this to this to this CONTROL ROOM to this VOCAL BOOTH GTR ISO more in the next post....
We have finished the build! Two and a half months of 14hr workdays and going twice over our initial budget this is the final result:
LIVE ROOM
From this to this to this CONTROL ROOM to this VOCAL BOOTH GTR ISO more in the next post....
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Re: Will this work?
ENTRANCE/KITCHEN
Cheers,
Keijo
to this
LOUNGE
to this
Couldn´t have done it without the VAST knowledge base I found here. BIG THANKS to Stuart for getting me on the right track on doing things it was a great help. All rooms sound AMAZING... Much better than the rooms we had before and that was aour initial goal with the new place to ammend all the stuff we did wrong on the last run Cheers,
Keijo
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Re: Will this work?
That place looks fantastic! Nice work.
It's always appreciated when people post photos of their studios at completion. Thanks!
- Stuart -
It's always appreciated when people post photos of their studios at completion. Thanks!
- Stuart -