New home/project studio design in Finland

[ironman]

Hello to all from the cold north!
I'm a long time reader, first time poster in here, and at first I must say huge thanks to all you in here for such a great forum!

And now to the point: I started to design a new rehearsal room / project studio to my yard.
It's in design phase for now, and i think of start building some time this summer.

Location is in central Finland, virtually in a middle of forest, nearest neighbor is about 100 meters away, and there is a forest between us.
Sound levels in my current room are usually around 100 db, including a normal hard/metal lineup. Current room is just a garage with a very little insulation and no soundproofing at all, and yet i've had no complains about playing in the middle of the night

The main use for the room(s) are rehearsal with my bands, recording some own stuff and maybe some local demo bands.
Budget runs somewhere between $10k to $25k, as i will build it little by little. First i will do outer walls and roof before winter and then when i'll have some time the rest, as said, little by little.

As for the new build, i'm thinking to go with that double frame insulated (rockwool) walls (STC 63) as described in Rod Gervaises book in outer walls. Floor will be a thick concrete slab with wood/laminate on top. Rooms heights will be around 2,8 meters to 3 meters, rest of dimensions can be seen in the plan.

I would really be pleased with any comments and suggestions regarding this plan, since it's just a design now. There isn't any basstraps/acoustic elements yet in the plan, because i want to get the layout done first.

[ironman]

A bit bigger plan added, now done with sketchup so a bit easier to read.

Does it make control room hard to deal with, because it isn't symmetrical in this plan?
The little rectangular space in control room is supposed to be reservation for a toilet.
Room heights have also been grown to 3 meters.

I really want to do this right from the start, so would really appreciate some advice / ideas from you guys.
Still hoping to get feedback from plan(s) so far, i will start doing foundations in two weeks, and things can still be changed, if there is something totally wrong.
Plans can also be published with imperial measurements, if that eases out things.

[Soundman2020]

Hi ironman, and Welcome!

Does it make control room hard to deal with, because it isn't symmetrical in this plan?

Yes, it does. Symmetry is very important for the control room. At the very least, the front half of the control room must be symmetrical. If not, then your stereo image will be "skewed" and distorted in one way or another, and your mixes will not sound good when played in other places.

Also, the control room should be set up so that the speakers are facing down the long axis of the room, not across the short axis.

Have you considered using a "corner" control room design? That might fit your space a bit better.

- Stuart -

[ironman]

Hi again to all!
Nice to report from unusually warm Finland

Yes, it does. Symmetry is very important for the control room. At the very least, the front half of the control room mys be symmetrical. If not, then your stereo image will be "skewed" and distorted in one way or another, and your mixes will not sound good when played in other places.

Also, the control room should be set up so that the speakers are facing down the long axis of the room, not across the short axis.

Have you considered using a "corner" control room design? That might fit your space a bit better.

- Stuart -

Huge thanks for that Stuart!

And now to the point:

Since my day job taking almost every single moment i have, i haven't been able to start building yet, i haven't even completed designing.
I've been trying to come up with a floorplan that would suit my designed building the best, but honestly speaking, trying to decide what kind of layout to use with control room is driving me crazy
And also I've been reading this forum a lot, seriously a lot (according to my wife ) in past weeks, and also read the Rod Gervais's book, but somehow it won't still come together.


The problem is that i have no experience in acoustic/studio design at all (as you all can tell from my first post too ), so i would really appreciate your advice on this one guys
So if anyone of you have any idea, tips, comments, anything i'd be really pleased with that.
Hope that someday i'll be able to help you guys out with something that i know better (after all i'm an electrician.. )

I've attached 3 possible layouts as jpeg as well as sketchup file with all three.
Every plan has a room height of 3 meters, and if necessary it may be grown 10-20 cm.

Plan #1 shows a quite nice (as far as i know) quite nice bonello curve, and it gives a ratio of 1 : 1.39 : 1.89

Plan_1.jpg

Plan #2 has a ratio of 1 : 1.47 : 2.09, which is near to Loudens 3rd best ratio 1 : 1.5 : 2.1.

plan_2.jpg

Plan #3 ..guess ratio can't be calculated because front wall is angled, so really don't know about that. The thing i like in that is i get one angled wall also to the live room.

plan_3.jpg

Hoping to hear suggestions soon
And thanks in advance!

-Juho-

[Soundman2020]

Hi again!

Definitely not #2. Perhaps #1, but I'd go with Plan #3. (That's what I meant with the comment about a "corner control room".)

Don't worry about the ratio too much: All rooms have modes, regardless of shape, but only rooms with parallel surfaces have axial modes: A room shaped like yours cannot have axial modes, only tangential and oblique ones, and they are -3dB and -6dB down compared to axials. You'll have to measure the room anyway once it is complete, in order to decide on treatment, and you'll find your modes then.

So anyway, I'd go with Plan #3.

- Stuart -

[ironman]

Hi again!

Definitely not #2. Perhaps #1, but I'd go with Plan #3. (That's what I meant with the comment about a "corner control room".)

Don't worry about the ratio too much: All rooms have modes, regardless of shape, but only rooms with parallel surfaces have axial modes: A room shaped like yours cannot have axial modes, only tangential and oblique ones, and they are -3dB and -6dB down compared to axials. You'll have to measure the room anyway once it is complete, in order to decide on treatment, and you'll find your modes then.

So anyway, I'd go with Plan #3.

- Stuart -

Again thanks to Stuart!
Seriously i couldn't even imagine building a studio without such a great source of information and help as this forum is!

And as you Stuart say in your signature, i want this one to amaze people, so that'll do isn't an option

I've decided to go with plan #3, as you suggested.
I think that the volume of control room should be fine (86 cubic meters / 3037 cubic feet), right?

I've attached a pic regarding my planned soffit mounts for monitors, angles on mounts are 30 degrees and 'triangle' in acoustic axis is that recommended 60 degrees.
Listening position is calculated with that 38% from front wall, but somehow it seems to me that it's a bit too near, at least when looking at raytraces from speakers..
Is there any faults in design / listening position?
Also, should i consider sloping the ceiling in control room, even though it's not very high?

corner_v1_soffit11.jpg

[Shybird]

Hi ironman!

Just wanted to chime in since your studio has very similar dimensions to the studio I'm currently designing. I just have a couple questions for you...

1. Are you trying to incorporate any iso booths?

2. What are the primary goals for the studio?

3. Have you looked into a "Reflection Free Zone" design for the CR? It could be done with that kind of floor space.

Also, as Stuart would likely tell you, as he has told me, the 38% rule for the mixing position only applies to rectangular rooms. So don't worry about that if you go with the corner design. Just make sure you have enough room in front of and behind the mix position for desks, couches, equipment, etc. Also, if you start ray-tracing for a potential RFZ, you will find that speaker angles, width between speakers, and things like that begin to play a huge part in reflection times.

Hope that helps. Also, here is a quick design that gives more sight lines into the live room as long as you don't mind looking through sliding doors at your side rather than through glass at the front. Just a rough sketch.

Cheers and good luck!!
Trevor

[Shybird]

Also, just for the record...I'm a very inexperienced member here on the forum. Just trying to help where I can and learn at the same time. That being said, take my advice lightly. I'm not in a place to give advice in comparison to wizards like Stuart...

[Soundman2020]

I think that the volume of control room should be fine (86 cubic meters / 3037 cubic feet), right?

Actually, it doesn't need to be that big. The general recommendation for a critical listening room is a minimum of about 1,500 cubic feet. ITU and EBU mention 100 m3 (3,500 ft3) as the reference room for some calculations, but that doesn't mean that you have to build it that big! That's just a convention used for comparing all other rooms, and not necessarily an ideal room. ITU and EBU also state that the room volume should never exceed 300 m3 (10,600 ft3), and that the minimum footprint (floor area) is 30 m2 for a high quality control room. However, they don't mention height for that room (only floor area), but the lowest height that still allows meeting all their other criteria is about 2.4m. So in theory a good high-quality control room can have a volume of about 72 cubic meters, or about 2,500 cubic feet.

So you can actually make your room a bit smaller if you want, which will give you more space in your live room.

Listening position is calculated with that 38% from front wall,

38% doesn't really apply to non-rectangular rooms. That's the theoretical best location in a rectangular room, but yours isn't. And even then, it's just a guideline, not meant to be a rigid rule.

but somehow it seems to me that it's a bit too near, at least when looking at raytraces from speakers..

To me, it looks a bit too far! The best control rooms seem to have the head-speaker distance around 2.2m, and many engineers like to be even closer than that.

angles on mounts are 30 degrees and 'triangle' in acoustic axis is that recommended 60 degrees.

So now you are in the "fun" part of figuring out your room geometry! Here too, 30° is just the general recommendation, but you can increase that angle if you want to / have to. You can go as high as 45° if necessary (but I'd try to keep it under 40°).

One other thing: you seem to have your speakers in the middle of the soffit panels (left-right). I used to think that was the best place too, but now it seems that it is better to set them at around 2/5 of the width. I'm still trying to find research to back up that 2/5 fraction, but I haven't found it yet!

- Stuart -

[ironman]

Thanks Trevor & Stuart for feedback and tips!

1. Are you trying to incorporate any iso booths?

Yes or no, haven't decided yet. If i'll decide to build an iso booth, it would take place on upper corner of live room and control room.

2. What are the primary goals for the studio?

At this time my main goals are getting a decent rehearsal space with ability to record some own stuff and maybe some smaller bands too. I've been dreaming having such a place since i was a kid, so i decided that now is the time to make it happen.
In future i may consider using it commercially, but at the moment it isn't my main goal. So that's why i want make it right from the start, so if that happens, i have the facilities already as they supposed to be.
The reason i might consider renting/recording 'commercial' bands is that, that in here in 100 mile radius there are only 3 decent studios.

3. Have you looked into a "Reflection Free Zone" design for the CR? It could be done with that kind of floor space.

I was under the impression that with such a corner design it would be easy to accomplish RTZ-design..?
Reason why i'd like to keep that corner design is that, that in here it gets very cold at winter (-30 degrees C), and with that design i can create a draught lobby (don't know is that even a right word ) so when using outdoor it'll prevent cold air entering the whole space. Another reason is that i can build a toilet under the control room, in the lower right corner. And i get a nice airlock between live room and control room too, and i can prevent people leaving/entering the studio/cr without walking through live room.

Thanks Trevor for your quick design, but i think that i'm so stubborn that i'll stick with corner design

Actually, it doesn't need to be that big. The general recommendation for a critical listening room is a minimum of about 1,500 cubic feet. ITU and EBU mention 100 m3 (3,500 ft3) as the reference room for some calculations, but that doesn't mean that you have to build it that big! That's just a convention used for comparing all other rooms, and not necessarily an ideal room. ITU and EBU also state that the room volume should never exceed 300 m3 (10,600 ft3), and that the minimum footprint (floor area) is 30 m2 for a high quality control room. However, they don't mention height for that room (only floor area), but the lowest height that still allows meeting all their other criteria is about 2.4m. So in theory a good high-quality control room can have a volume of about 72 cubic meters, or about A2,500 cubic feet.

So you can actually make your room a bit smaller if you want, which will give you more space in your live room.

That's good to know Stuart! Thanks!
When i get home at night i'll see if i reduce the size of a control room a bit, although my live room is already quite spacious, and i don't want to make cr too small
Guess that current size isn't a problem in control room? I mean acoustically

I'll look on to those other things that Stuart mentioned too, when i get home at night.

Again, huge thanks to both of you!

-Juho-

[Shybird]

I was under the impression that with such a corner design it would be easy to accomplish RTZ-design..?

Well yes and no...I just went through this on my own studio design. The main problems with the corner CR, at least in my experience, are the first reflection points that exist at the side walls opposite each speaker (behind the mix position). So for the right speaker it would be around the middle of the back left wall. The mix position is much closer to these walls than it would be to the back wall of a more normal "long" rectangular design. Basically the room might have to be a little bigger if you want a complete 20ms/-20db reflection free zone. I'd say your CR is only slightly short of that but I'm not sure. You'll have to ray trace and figure it out. You might already have it. And like Stuart has told me several times now, 20ms is not set in stone. Achieving 15ms or sometimes even just 10ms is all you need. You just have to factor in the right amount of absorption to bring the level of those reflections down a good 15-20dB.

If my description does not make complete sense, you might want to take a look at my thread since I already went through the process step by step when I did the ray-tracing and calculations. Like I said, it's almost identical to your situation. You've really got the potential for an amazing studio! Looking forward to watching it happen!

Cheers
Trevor

[ironman]

And again greets to all!

Things are starting to take new shape over here..
After a long conversation with my better half, we decided to build an extension to current building that sits on our yard.
So i can extend my sauna for a bit, and also fit in 2 new storage rooms to keep lady of the house happy

So here is the current plan for space i have available to use with my studio.

extension.jpg

All the green parts are already there and in use, and the new bit is with blue color.

So now i'm having a totally hard part to figure out whether to go with corner control room or rectangular one.
I'm also planning to fit a vocal/iso booth and a small toilet to that area.
I also talked to the local authorities, and that's the maximum amount of space i'm allowed to build to my property.
Local building inspectors/authorities were also very interested and excited about my build Maybe because in my town no-one has ever built something like this

More to come when i get my plans sorted out! Stay tuned

I've also included the latest sketchup file, if someone wants to mess around with it

[ironman]

Okay guys..

And now something really stupid:

What the h*ll i'm doing wrong with my soffit mount design?
It's seems that whatever i do, my listening position always comes up too far from front wall (roughly 3 meters).
I've tried drawing soffits 22,5 ; 30 ; whatever angles, and it always appears in almost same spot.

Have i missed something? ( example: soffits 30 degrees from front wall, speakers 60 degrees from another speaker, right?)

Have been searching over the internet for few days, but haven't found an idiotproof answer to that how they should be designed

Thanks in advance!

-Juho

[Soundman2020]

It's seems that whatever i do, my listening position always comes up too far from front wall (roughly 3 meters).
I've tried drawing soffits 22,5 ; 30 ; whatever angles, and it always appears in almost same spot.

Something must be wrong! Even a small change in angle can give you a large change in listening position.

How about posting images of a few of your attempts, so we can try to figure out what is going wrong?

Basic concept: Start with the speakers at roughly 30% and 70% of the room WIDTH, and facing straight back at the rear wall. Now turn them to an angle of 30° inwards, so they are facing at the point where your head will be, which will be about the same distance from the front wall as the distance between the speakers. If you did that right, he imaginary "acoustic axes" shooting directly out the front of each speaker, will intersect at an angle of around 60° just a few inches behind your head.

Now, if you change the angles of the speakers from 30° to 45°, then they will be aiming at a point much closer to the front wall, and the angle of intersection for the acoustic axes will have changed to 90°: Is that NOT what you are getting?

- Stuart -

[ironman]

It's seems that whatever i do, my listening position always comes up too far from front wall (roughly 3 meters).
I've tried drawing soffits 22,5 ; 30 ; whatever angles, and it always appears in almost same spot.

Something must be wrong! Even a small change in angle can give you a large change in listening position.

How about posting images of a few of your attempts, so we can try to figure out what is going wrong?

Basic concept: Start with the speakers at roughly 30% and 70% of the room WIDTH, and facing straight back at the rear wall. Now turn them to an angle of 30° inwards, so they are facing at the point where your head will be, which will be about the same distance from the front wall as the distance between the speakers. If you did that right, he imaginary "acoustic axes" shooting directly out the front of each speaker, will intersect at an angle of around 60° just a few inches behind your head.

Now, if you change the angles of the speakers from 30° to 45°, then they will be aiming at a point much closer to the front wall, and the angle of intersection for the acoustic axes will have changed to 90°: Is that NOT what you are getting?

- Stuart -

Cheers, Stuart for quick response

Ok i got the idea, and got it working on rectangular space, but as can be seen from my older post, my cr is going to be corner design..and that seems to be the problem in my understanding

In a corner design, should the room width be measured from listening point?

For example, in picture below is one of my several attempts to get it right.

corner_v1_soffit11.jpg

I have to admit, that since i dived into this huge world of designing my own studio, I've been unable to think anything else
Guess i would tear my hair off the head, if i only had one