New Studio - Blank Palette (long ramble w/many ???)

xaMdaM · Post by **xaMdaM** » Sun May 23, 2004 1:56 pm

John,

First, thanks for a great site! Been lurking around for awhile and finally got the nerve up for a post...

Begin edit:
Should I move this to construction? If I've posted this to the wrong group, my appologies.
End Edit

My studio "pallette" is pretty clean... it's a 30x40 foot building. Walls are 2x8 stud walls, 24 inches on center, on 8" cinder-block foundation. Rough ceiling height is 14 foot clear span 2x4 truss roof 24 inches on center. No finished floor. Currently the floor is "crush and run" gravel... road bed/driveway compaction.

The exterior is .75 inch OSB. Some boards need to be replaced. No electricty, water, etc. Just a plane jane box. Roof is .625 inch Plywood/felt paper and 20 year shingles with 7 years on em'.

I had originally planned on room within a room design with independant concrete slabs for each room. My construction budget has been slashed such that concrete floors are prohibiting me going that way... I think.

I'm hoping for a live room, control room, 1 small "vocal" iso booth and a "small" composing room/iso booth. A bit of a stretch for 1200 sq. ft., but I'm hoping it'll work.

A concrete floor is more expensive to build as a wood" floor isn't it? Assuming so, what is the "best" method for building a wood floor? - same method of independant floors for each room.

My assumption:
8. .75 inch t&g cherry flooring (I've got 1500 sq ft)
7. .25 inch "quiet floor" felt
6. .75 inch plywood (applied in opposite direction)
5. .5 inch Plywood
4. Poly vapor barrier
3. 2x6 floor joist-16 inch on center w/6 inch rock wool or fiberglass insulation
2. Poly vapor barrier
1. Earth

Post by **John Sayers** » Mon May 24, 2004 10:35 am

Yes - I've moved your post to construction

cheers
john

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Tue May 25, 2004 9:40 am

I've got about 10 minutes before having to hit the road for last graveyard shift (12 hrs each) so this needs to be quick -

First, are you really placing floor joists on a vapor barrier direcly on the ground, or did you mean on a concrete slab?

As to expense, you may want to give this some further thought - in my locale, 1/2" CDX plywood has gone from around $11 per sheet a year ago to $22 a sheet last week - it's probably $25 by now, there are times I really HATE capitalism

- Anyway, if this keeps going it may make concrete floated floors look pretty reasonable -

I need to think about your double vapor barrier as well, I'll get back to you in a day or two... Steve

dymaxian · Post by **dymaxian** » Wed May 26, 2004 1:19 am

Hrm. I dont know about whether the concrete floor would serve you better in this case or not... if you have gravel down now, and you want a floated floor system anyway, perhaps it's not a bad thing to omit the concrete under there altogether. You'll need bigger floor members than 2x6s tho, unless there's a grade beam or some other kind of bearing point along the middle of the building. 30' is a long way to go with 2x6. Especially with as much plywood as you're planning to use for the floor deck. This is presuming it's all one floor system, tho- no structural isolation between rooms.

If you're planning on having the floor systems structurally isolated from each other, you'll be pouring concrete footings in the inside of this- they'll have to sit on something. But perhaps this wouldn't be a big deal- you could pour a strip-footing outlining the individual rooms, build the floor system up off of that in individual sections so they'd be isolated from each other, and then the interior wall systems off those floated floors. Perhaps that's the way to go- you'd be cutting your floor joist spans down considerably, you'd be pouring a minimal amount of concrete, and if you build the floor joists up on neoprene pads, you'll get some good isolation between rooms.

Sounds like you have a nice space to work with there. Good luck!

xaMdaM · Post by **xaMdaM** » Thu May 27, 2004 9:05 am

I looked at the design for "Carriage House" and really like the layout. So, with some minor mods, http://www.johnlsayers.com/Studio/Mainp ... rriage.htm should work since the square footage is the same.

As far as the floor... maybe a revision is due, huh?!?

8. .75 inch t&g cherry flooring (I've got 1500 sq ft)
7. .25 inch "quiet floor" felt
6. .75 inch plywood (applied in opposite direction)
5. .5 inch Plywood
4. Poly? vapor barrier
3. 2x8 floor joist-16 inch on center w/8 inch rock wool or fiberglass insulation
2. Poly vapor barrier
1. Strip Perimeter CONCRETE or Cinderblock??? approximately 1" above grade***
a. Earth

Should I go this route, should the joists be put on "pucks"? I would think that the "pucks" would create a third spring point with the "quiet floor" felt. I would also think that "staggering" either concrete or cinder block through the "centerline" of each room would help with support across the longer spans in the control and live rooms. Staggering the position should help eliminate setting up the floor with standing waves of the 2nd and 3rd harmonics, right?

Additionally, I'm curious as to how best deal with the truss roof. I would like to keep as much volume (ceiling vault) as possible/practical/necessary, but the seal between the rooms is certainly going to be tricky isn't it?

Thanx,
Max

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Thu May 27, 2004 5:40 pm

First, vapor barriers need to go in different locations depending on which surface is warmer most of the time but they should NEVER be put in two places where they can trap moisture in/around your construction - so, if you plan to keep your studio well air-conditioned and the ground will usually be warmer than your inside, then the vapor barrier should be toward the ground from the joists, since that would be the warmer side - in most construction, however, you want the vapor barrier toward the living space since that is normally the warmer side.

http://resourcecenter.ashrae.org/store/ ... nid=893497

Floating floors, to work well, need a LOT of engineering to come out right - I'm kind of a "mad scientist" type, and still feel a bit of trepidation at the thought of designing a floating floor from scratch as opposed to having an established specialty company set it up - I've posted some wild ideas on this in the "sticky" on floating floors at the top of this forum -

Also, flooring-wise how's the termite/ant situation there? I'm only partially familiar with these type problems...

What type trusses do you have - are the the Scissor type like Michael is using, hence the vaulted ceilings? And yes, this can get really tricky for isolation if you don't want to lose head room; some drawings/pix are always helpful when discussing this (or any construction, for that matter)

Hey, we're getting a good start... Steve

xaMdaM · Post by **xaMdaM** » Thu May 27, 2004 7:12 pm

knightfly wrote:First, vapor barriers need to go in different locations depending on which surface is warmer most of the time but they should NEVER be put in two places where they can trap moisture in/around your construction - so, if you plan to keep your studio well air-conditioned and the ground will usually be warmer than your inside, then the vapor barrier should be toward the ground from the joists, since that would be the warmer side - in most construction, however, you want the vapor barrier toward the living space since that is normally the warmer side.

Yeah, I'm really perplexed about the moisture issue... and kinda' "vapor locking", so to speak, about how to deal with capillary attraction into the insulation in the floor if I don't put a vapor barrier down on the ground. AND "Assuming" I put the barrier on the ground, don't I need to be concerned with humidity levels "seeping" down to the subfloor from inside the studio? - OR - Am I just being paranoid? Here in North Carolina, we go from one weather extreme to another, but I guess we're probably warmer than we are cold... The link you gave has begun to open mine eyes! I was actually thinking that I would be trapping moisture out of the floor joists/insulation as opposed to trapping it in... DOH! Thanx!

Floating floors, to work well, need a LOT of engineering to come out right - I'm kind of a "mad scientist" type, and still feel a bit of trepidation at the thought of designing a floating floor from scratch as opposed to having an established specialty company set it up - I've posted some wild ideas on this in the "sticky" on floating floors at the top of this forum -

As I've traveled around the audio/acoustics forums I have always looked for the best practices and best practical solutions. But the lightning strike kinda put a warp in the ol' thinktank... So, yeah, I got the "mad scientist" thing happening too... whether that's good for me or not... that's a WHOLE different thread! <BG> As I had originally posted, I have had a MAJOR budget crunch develop, so my original plans of getting a studio contractor to actually design AND build the studio are done with. Now it looks like about the best I can do is to afford a consultant role for a studio designer. It's less than ideal, but it's what I can afford at this juncture of the design stage.

I'm just gonna have to take it slow and steady, until the construction method is planned right. Then the design should go fairly quick. (In comparison)

Also, flooring-wise how's the termite/ant situation there? I'm only partially familiar with these type problems...

Ahhh, the bugs! I had kinda' forgotten to thunk about that one... great reminder... probably would be best to spend the $100-125 to have the soil treated by a termite/pest company wouldn't it!?! Most of the treatments carry a 20 year guarantee. (We had to have the house we sold treaded, so this much I know.)

What type trusses do you have - are they the Scissor type like Michael is using, hence the vaulted ceilings? And yes, this can get really tricky for isolation if you don't want to lose head room; some drawings/pix are always helpful when discussing this (or any construction, for that matter)

Hey, we're getting a good start... Steve

Unfortunately, they're the standard flat bottom truss. Once daylight hits this morning, I'll run down to the "studio" and grab a few shots and try to post them tonight.

Thanx for not givin' up on me yet Steve!
Max

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Thu May 27, 2004 7:36 pm

"Thanx for not givin' up on me yet Steve!" - Aw, shucks, nuthin to it - which reminds me, got this dead horse I buried with my backhoe last year, gotta remember to dig it up tomorrow and flog it again...

xaMdaM · Post by **xaMdaM** » Fri May 28, 2004 11:14 am

knightfly wrote:"Thanx for not givin' up on me yet Steve!" - Aw, shucks, nuthin to it - which reminds me, got this dead horse I buried with my backhoe last year, gotta remember to dig it up tomorrow and flog it again...

You sure you ain't workin' at my day gig? We always beat that damn dead horse that way! Still won't run... !@#*!@&#% horse!

As a side note; I hear they're bringing in a Tiger Team next week to revive the dead horse!

Adding a few shots of the interior of the studio... Hope they ain't too big. If they are, lemme know and I'll size em' down.

Top image:
Far corner showing 2x8 stud wall and truss roof system - 16 inches on center. Annotation is 48" from bottom of truss to nailer plate, 12'-0" from truss bottom to top plate... Harmonics hell?

Middle image:
2x4 truss roof - 30' clear span to exterior

Bottom image:
Foundation, top-plate and wall above gravel grade

Thanx,
Max

xaMdaM · Post by **xaMdaM** » Sun May 30, 2004 3:00 am

Steve,

Been going through the sticky's here and a few of the other sites I haunt...

As far as the floor...

What about putting sand in the joist cavities instead of just rockwool or fiberglass?

The poly vapor barrier on the ground should be able to keep ground seepage out of the sand.

Additionally, I would ask if this is feasable/the right way to do it... would I want tto put sand in the void areas between the rooms? My guess is not to, as the sand would transmit vibration (though minimally) from one "pad assembly" to the other better than air or rockwool.

Your thoughts?

Max

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:15 am

Rod has had good luck with sand in floors - as far as doing that in non-masonry walls, not a good idea - all the weight of a vertical column of sand is brought to bear at the bottom of the cavity, and that's what makes it a bad idea. For hollow blocks, it's a different story though... I've heard that in some ways, a sand-filled block wall works better than a solid concrete or concrete-filled block wall... Steve