Noob question! (Sabine Equation -> Room design)

[mrwishart]

Hey guys, been on the board for a few months now, soaking up knowledge like an audio sponge and wanted to thank you guys for the invaluable information you present here. Read a few manuals earlier in the year but they all a) stress the need for floating floors on every design and b) operate mainly on the idea that you have infinite amount of money. I realize they are more covering the theory of room design but it's awesome to see a forum for the practical side (money, space, location, how to caulk, where to purchase materials etc.)

On that note, I've read through the Handbook Of Acoustics by Everest and Pohlmann (great read) and in one chapter they take a rectangular room and, based on the volume (4000 cub ft), desired reverberation time (0.6s) and hence the required absorption (327 sabins) , cover the room in acoustical tiles and polycylindrical modules to achieve the correct reverberation time theoretically. I was just wondering how practical this is? I've been reading through several of the studio designs presented on this message board and have yet to see a room designed this way. Is this more as a teaching example or can this be applied to a proper studio design?

[Soundman2020]

Hi there "mrwishart". Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things!

Read a few manuals earlier in the year but they all a) stress the need for floating floors on every design

You've probably figured out by now that floating floors are seldom necessary, hard to do right, and pretty expensive! I never have figured out why so many books want you to do things that just aren't necessary! The only time you need a floating floor is if you don't have enough isolation in your existing floor, and for 99% of garage and basement builds, the existing floor is a thick concrete slab on grade, which gives you plenty of isolation for most home studios!

I was just wondering how practical this is? I've been reading through several of the studio designs presented on this message board and have yet to see a room designed this way. Is this more as a teaching example or can this be applied to a proper studio design?

I can't speak for Everest et. al., but to me that's more of an example of how to go about it, than a design for an actual real room. There are many ways of designing a room, and many ways of getting enough absorption: I think they were just giving one example of how it could be done.

There's also the issue that not many home studios manage to end up with 4000 cubic feet of volume!

- Stuart -

[mrwishart]

Hi, Stuart! Thanks for the swift reply!

Hi there "mrwishart". Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things!

Haha, my bad. Could have sworn I'd already put my location on my profile!

I was just wondering how practical this is? I've been reading through several of the studio designs presented on this message board and have yet to see a room designed this way. Is this more as a teaching example or can this be applied to a proper studio design?

I can't speak for Everest et. al., but to me that's more of an example of how to go about it, than a design for an actual real room. There are many ways of designing a room, and many ways of getting enough absorption: I think they were just giving one example of how it could be done.

There's also the issue that not many home studios manage to end up with 4000 cubic feet of volume!

- Stuart -

That's true. Was a good example that clarified some of the equations for me but I had the feeling it was more of a textbook example than something which could have been implemented exactly and worked. The reason I ask is that I'm in the initial stages of setting up a recording/rehearsal facility here in Edinburgh and so have been trying to school myself as best I can on the art/science of room acoustics and studio design. And I when I say 'initial' I mean 'we don't even have a location yet' but we're aiming for a recording room around that size and I didn't see any posts here that discussed their room design as it relates to the Sabine Equation.

Still, I don't want to annoy anyone with a half-baked, theoretical room layout and no measurements. Will post again shortly once we have our facility and more details to share

Thanks for your help, Stuart!

[Soundman2020]

Scotland! I actually have roots that go back there! Got some highlander in my blood somewhere (both of my grandfathers, actually). I managed to visit your city many years ago, and we loved it. I felt right at home, for some reason. Did the tourist thing, of course (disappointed: we never did see Nessie), and even bought myself a set of mini bagpipes. Tried to play them a few times, but the neighbors thought we were torturing cats, so I gave that up...

So double welcome!

Anyway, sabines are just one small part of studio design, and there are many other important factors, and many approaches to studio shape, size, layout and treatment, depending on what you want to achieve. Everest was just describing one possibility, but there might be many reasons to do things differently. In some cases, fore example, one type of treatment might not be possible, so others will need to be substituted and modified. I think the idea of his book is more of general concepts, background, guidelines, rather than a concrete "Do it like this always".

Will post again shortly once we have our facility and more details to share

Looking forward to it!

I just have one question: it sounds like I joke, but I mean it seriously, and I'm hoping you are the right guy to answer it: How do you record bagpipes? Where do you place the mic in relation to the player? With most instruments its pretty clear where the mic should go, and trial and error can tweak it, but with the pipes it seems like sound is coming out all over, in several different places, so how on earth do you mic that to get a good sound? Just curiosity, more than anything: I doubt I'll ever need to actually track pipes! But I was wondering about that a while back, and now that I see you are from Scotland, it jogged my memory.


- Stuart -

[mrwishart]

Anyway, sabines are just one small part of studio design, and there are many other important factors, and many approaches to studio shape, size, layout and treatment, depending on what you want to achieve. Everest was just describing one possibility, but there might be many reasons to do things differently. In some cases, fore example, one type of treatment might not be possible, so others will need to be substituted and modified. I think the idea of his book is more of general concepts, background, guidelines, rather than a concrete "Do it like this always".

He does insist there's no strict formula after that section, was just surprised not to see similar Sabine calculations here. You're right though, the more I've read here the more I'm learning about the other elements that make up a studio design.

Will post again shortly once we have our facility and more details to share

Looking forward to it!

Shouldn't be long; found a good sized warehouse (2800 sq ft, sloped ceiling with a minimum height of 10 feet at either end) that we're considering going for. Once confirmed and I've got proper measurements and pics I'll be uploading

May seem like a lot of space but we're also hoping to have a few rehearsal rooms to beef up initial profits.

I just have one question: it sounds like I joke, but I mean it seriously, and I'm hoping you are the right guy to answer it: How do you record bagpipes? Where do you place the mic in relation to the player? With most instruments its pretty clear where the mic should go, and trial and error can tweak it, but with the pipes it seems like sound is coming out all over, in several different places, so how on earth do you mic that to get a good sound? Just curiosity, more than anything: I doubt I'll ever need to actually track pipes! But I was wondering about that a while back, and now that I see you are from Scotland, it jogged my memory.

Haha, can't say I've had the pleasure of recording bagpipes. Like most of Scotland's famous exports (i.e kilts, haggis, bagpipes) they're usually only brought out for tourists or for formal occasions. Although, admittedly, I do very much enjoy whisky However, I did have a girlfriend who played a bit of bagpipes and she usually practiced on the chanter part, leaving the bag for whenever she was playing in public. So you could probably mic the main pipe up as you would a flute (possibly positioned closer to avoid picking up too much of the drone) with the option of a wide diaphragm mic over the remaining pipes to capture more of the drone if required.

Or use a room mic. Bagpipes aren't subtle instruments

[Soundman2020]

Bagpipes aren't subtle instruments

! Now THAT'S an understatement if I ever heard one!

- Stuart -

[BriHar]

How do you record bagpipes? Where do you place the mic in relation to the player? With most instruments its pretty clear where the mic should go, and trial and error can tweak it, but with the pipes it seems like sound is coming out all over, in several different places...

As far away as possible!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'd say bagpipes are one of those instruments recorded best in a dead environment. Condenser cardiod directed primarily at drones from behind (or just omni overhead) and dynamic directed on the chanter - not too close. Mix to taste adding reverb or chorusing etc. as desired.

FWIW, My grandmother on my mother's side was Scottish - Wallace.