Control Room Design

[monstertraxstudio]

Glad i have found this site and appreciate your insights and suggestions.

I am building a new control room in my building All the rooms are isolated, and built with 2x6 wood construction. the rooms are seperated with a 2" air gap. The new control room is 14' high 27' deep and 20' wide. I dont really have a way to put up a drawing (any suggestions?). Using a room mode calculator i found online it appears if i read it right i have a 1, 1.4, 1.9 design. which falls into someones "D" room. I wondering how low and large my cloud should be? I have alot of questions but i will add them later. The floor is 6" of reinforced concrete. My one other question is, i have built a 12' by 5' 2x6 floor on one side to put a couch on. (wifes the decorator) I have heard that sand is the best thing to fill the caities instead of insulation for sound. I dont want to deal with extra low end problems coming from my couch area....suggestions? The room is not rectangular as appears. there is a 45 degree closet on one wall by console and the 45 for the french doors on the other.

[monstertraxstudio]

Anyone have any answers, Im also wondering if i need a cloud in my control room if my ceiling is 13'8" flat overhead???

[RJHollins]

Hi,

Your gonna need to fill out you 'Profile' page with all the appropriate info first.

As for drawings ... most everyone here uses SketchUP from Google [free].

Look forward to following your thread.

[monstertraxstudio]

Here is my drawing for the current new walls

[monstertraxstudio]

Rooms are isolated except the floors. MSM or MAM is 1/2" drywall, 2x6 walls, r-19 isulation, 2" air gap, r-19 insulation and double 5/8" drywall(on walls connecting to Control room. Floor is 6" concrete, Ceiling height is 13'8". the air chamber/iso room 3 is one question. its ceiling is currently the same as the rest. Im wanting to know if you think i should put an angled ceiling in there like 10' to 12'. looks odd with that high of a ceiling in it. Rooms 1-2 have 8' ceiling in them( i know, i built it for overhead storage before i decided to make this a full blown studio.)

Im currently at the final framing stages, im looking for concerns about my designs and walls, i have caulked all walls to the floors,etc.. Insight and possible deflection/ absorbtion ideas, any tragic decisions on my part???

Thanks guys for helping review the progress.

[Soundman2020]

Like RJ said: You need to take a look at the rules for posting here, especially regarding your profile. There's something important you seem to be missing!


- Stuart -

[monstertraxstudio]

Not sure what else im missing, i dont have those other things to enter, if im missing some sort of important documentation before anyone will respond to my questions please advise. I want to be compliant.

[monstertraxstudio]

I have no issues with isolation to the outside, I record all types of music in the industry, this is a fairly new studio. Not sure what else i can add at this time until i get some answers from you guys or some suggestions. I am at the electrical stage and mic wiring stage, unless there is some wall placement issues you see then im ready to get going on sheetrock after wire. Thanks again for your input.

[RJHollins]

Hi monstertraxstudio,

Just another member here that has sought the wonderful guidance/education from the 'Advisor's' on board.

... and following your thread.

You seem to be moving quickly, or your posts here are coming in well into your planning and
it is just getting here.

If I may ...

I looked at your floorplan ... and some 'concerns' are there !!! Especially in the Control Room
symmetry at the front of the room !!!

There is not enough detail for me to determine what your design entails as for things like:
Monitor mounting ??
Acoustic Treatment ?
Heat/AC/Ventilation?
etc.

Things like 'sight lines' to the various rooms. Also the position/location of the rooms ...
You have to go through ISO 1 to get to the bathroom ???

Again ... quick view from me.

Really ... give the 'Guys' here a chance to study your plan and talk with you.

My suggestion only

Sincerely

[monstertraxstudio]

Thanks for responding. I do not have the ability at the present to have absolute symetry at the front beside the console. There is. Utility closet on one side and the entry doors on the other as you can see in the drawing. At this stage I'm at the construction of the rooms. Will be setting the monitors at the front corners of the console as usually done. I won't have any far fields or soffit mounted speakers at least at this time. I'm putting the console in the optimum location for sight viewing of the other 3 rooms. Yes the bathroom is through an iOS room. Plans later to build a public bathroom possibly. I just had an HVAC contractor out last night to design a system. Quiet. Lots of bends and flex duct, large oversized registers and returns.

I'm asking the forum for construction questions at this poit. I'm at the stage I could change some things if there are things that wall treatment won't resolve. I really like my room designs and layouts. I'd appreciate Amy responses to the above previous questions if possible. Thanks so much for your help.

[Soundman2020]

I do not have the ability at the present to have absolute symetry at the front beside the console.

I don't see why not! There are several ways you could lay out that room with proper symmetry.

Put it this way: If you do not have symmetry in the front half of a control room, then you do not have a control room. Period. With no symmetry, you cannot get an accurate stereo image. With no symmetry, you cannot get a clear, precise sound-stage. With no symmetry, you cannot get stable EQ and response. With no symmetry, you cannot get accurate mixes that translate well. You might think that you can, but in reality you cannot. The human ear and brain are not capable of compensating for the deficiencies apparent in the front of your room. So if I were you, I'd be looking at how to fix that huge "800 pound gorilla" of a problem that you have sitting in the middle of your design, and which you seem to be ignoring: symmetry. Sorry to slam that home so hard, but it really is that important.

At this stage I'm at the construction of the rooms.

So you are already BUILDING it at present, and you don't have a workable design yet? Ummmm..... That might not be such a good idea...

Will be setting the monitors at the front corners of the console as usually done.

Main monitors on top of the console are a bad idea, for oh so many reasons. At least put them on stands, if you can't soffit mount them.

I won't have any far fields or soffit mounted speakers at least at this time.

That's a pity. Soffit mounting is so highly recommendable, and the benefits are so massive, that I'd strongly suggest that you might want to reconsider that decision.

What speakers will you be using in that room as your mains?

I'm putting the console in the optimum location for sight viewing of the other 3 rooms.

Which is probably the wrong place acoustically! Correct acoustics should be the very, very first thing you look at when designing a room. Then once you have the acoustics figured out, you can start working on how to adapt the sight lines to fit the acoustics. After all, the purpose of a studio is to track and mix sound, not to see well. Sight lines are important, for sure, but they should always take second place behind acoustics.

Your console is way too close to the front wall.

I'm asking the forum for construction questions at this poit. I'm at the stage I could change some things if there are things that wall treatment won't resolve.

OK, the things that wall treatment will not resolve are: lack of symmetry, badly placed speakers, badly positioned console, and things like that. Treatment will solve issues like modal response (to a certain extent), first reflections, insufficient diffusion, poor frequency response, time-domain response, and things like that. It cannot make up for a badly laid out, non-symmetrical room.

I really like my room designs and layouts

You might like it, but the sad truth is that it won't work, acoustically. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's better to hear the hard truth, sometimes, even when you don't like it!

OK, going back over your previous posts:

the rooms are seperated with a 2" air gap.

A 2 inch air gap is not enough. It should never be less than 4", or the MSM resonant frequency will be too high, and you will not get good isolation in the low end. However, the only way I know of for getting a 2" air gap is to build both walls inside-out. Is that your plan? If not, how are you going to make the studs thin enough to get a 2" air gap? Are you sure you understand what the term "air gap" means? I suspect that you might be confusing that with the "framing gap". It's a common confusion, actually, so don't feel alone! Many people make that same mistake...

The new control room is 14' high 27' deep and 20' wide.

Nice size! Lucky you! That's reasonably close to Louden's first ratio, and the Bonello diagram looks OK, but the ratio still fails one of the key BBC tests for a critical listening room. You might want to consider adjusting your room dimensions to fix that.

I wondering how low and large my cloud should be?

Big enough to cover the first reflection point on the ceiling, for YOUR speakers located in YOUR room over YOUR console and chair (assuming correct layout, of course: However, with the current layout you don't have much place for installing a good cloud). The best way to figure out the right size, is to ray trace, using the dispersion angles of your speakers as the basis.

My one other question is, i have built a 12' by 5' 2x6 floor on one side to put a couch on.

How did you build it? (materials and dimensions). Can you post a diagram, sketch orphotos? It very likely is acting as a resonant cavity of some type. How did you decouple / isolate it from the wall and floor? What frequency is it tuned to?

I have heard that sand is the best thing to fill the caities instead of insulation for sound.

Only partly true. Sand CAN be used for a proper floating floor deck, but it wouldn't be my choice. Rather, I would design and build that riser to work with the room, tuned to one of the modes that happens to peak in that region of the room. Or maybe just as tuned as general broad-band absorption. But I would still do the math, figure out what it is trying to do, and accommodate that in the design.

I dont want to deal with extra low end problems coming from my couch area

You seem to misunderstand what will happen there: there won't just be problems "coming out" of the couch area: there will also be problems "going in" to it. The riser will act as a resonant trap of some type, and will absorb the frequency(-ies) that it is tuned to. It will "suck energy out" of the room at that/those frequencies, causing nulls in the overall response of the room. That's why you should try to make those match modal problems that peak in the area of the couch: use it to your advantage. If you don't tune it consciously, then it will be tuned anyway, at random, and the chances of the random tuning coinciding with frequencies you need to hit, are pretty low! So you could end up with it sucking out frequencies that you DONT need it to touch, while not touching the ones that you DO need it to touch.

Im also wondering if i need a cloud in my control room if my ceiling is 13'8" flat overhead???

If you have a first reflection point up there, then yes you need a cloud. If you have a modal problem that involves the vertical axis, either axial, tangential or oblique, then yes you need a cloud (hard backed, in this case). If you have a flutter echo issue in the vertical plain in that area of the room, then yes you need a cloud.

Here is my drawing for the current new walls

I don't see the isolation plan, or that 2" gap you mentioned! Some of those walls look like they might be three-leaf, some seem to have no decoupling. Maybe you could provide a more detailed version of the plan? Or better still, do it in SketchUp, so we can analyze it properly, in 3D.

MSM or MAM is 1/2" drywall

1/2" drywall is too thin. Use only 5/8" fire-rated drywall.

2x6 walls,

Why? Do you really need such large studs? What is the reason for that? You can use 2x6 if you want to, of course, but 2x4s are less expensive and work well for the majority of studios.

and the 45 for the french doors on the other.

French doors? How are you going to isolate those??? It's not easy to get a good solid seal where they meet in the middle.

i have caulked all walls to the floors,etc..

Did you connected your walls to the existing ceiling? Or did you build a new ceiling for each room and connected the walls to that?

any tragic decisions on my part???

I think the answer to that question is in my responses above.

Please post photos of what you have done already, so we can see if any of that can be salvaged.

unless there is some wall placement issues you see then im ready to get going on sheetrock

Yes, there are several wall placement issues, and other issues. I don't think you are ready to hang drywall yet. I'd suggest that you should probably stop where you are right now, spend some time learning about acoustics and studio design, re-do your design from scratch, and only then start fixing the structure that you have already built, taking down what won't work, re-using what will, and checking everything along the way.

Like RJ said: you seem to be rushing through this a bit too fast, without sufficient planning. That does not bode well for a successful outcome. Once again, I hope all this doesn't sound too harsh: please consider it as a sort of "wake up call", to get your attention on some issues that could be serious deficiencies the eventual outcome.


- Stuart -

[monstertraxstudio]

Wow. Lots of info and lots of ripping at the same time. Just to clarify. I'm Not trying to build the next top studio. the walls of each room are seperated by the air gap as shown. The drawing is a good representation of construction. It's is easy to see there is the correct construction of wall surfaces msm. There is the existing old room that is 1/2" drywall, 2x6 wood wall with r-19 insulation the a 2" air gap then the new wall of 2x6 construction that will have r-19 insulation and a double layer of 5/8" fire rock staggered. I believe that according to everything I have read is a very well built wall system and the additional spring surface area at 13" is acceptable. I have been a construction business for 30 years. I don't have the ability or desire to make the 6" concrete floor that sits on 3' of compacted gravel isolated in each room. Not cost effective. The ceiling in the building is a fire ceiling and it as well is intact, so other treatment to counteract this issue is required.

I can turn the console around and face the other wall if the front symetry is of upmost importance, I'd like to also know the credentials of those who are responding to me in the manner in which you have. I have not heard Johns thoughts yet. I'm not discounting what you say, but theres forums are full of people who think they know all the answers. Don't get me wrong I see some of what your saying but I have been all over the world with my son who is a professional drummer and even Abbey Roads has rooms that don't have that so called symetry. I'm confused, but anyway. I'll get back to addressing your statements so everyone sees the answers as well.

The monitors are genelec and they currently sit on isolation foam on the top edges of the console frame I built. They will be on stands in the new room a bit wider. I disagree with "having to have monitors in the walls. I regularly use a studio in town that masters for LA, Nashvile etc with hundreds of thousands of dollars in gear and he rarely uses the soffit mounted ones. Thus the reason I bought the Gennys, their the same as his.

Loudens room D matches exactly as the calculator shows, 1, 1.4, 1.9
I believe I explained the 2" air gap and yes I know what air gap means. I have 12-13" of "spring" between the masses. I have started framing construction already and nearly completed it. I did not post my virtual drawing as an idea of what I'm thinking about, it is what is built, I have had local help in the design and room constraints. If someone can show me a better control room design within my space and it's constraints I will attempt to change it, otherwise there has to be compromises unfortunately.

You ask how I built the couch platform. As stated 2x6 construction approx 5' out and 12' wide with a leather couch on it. It will have 3/4" plywood on top and probably carpet and pad. The main floor is the concrete, I want the platform just to be a piece of the furniture or to be dead ,just not to be a negative in the room. I was told dry sand will do this and make it like it not even there. Dunno?? I can just as easily put r-19 insulation in there. Just want what's the best filler. I'm not sure how to test or figure what it should do. your best guess would help?

I asked about the cloud because I was told and have read with a 14' ceiling the first reflection will be beyond my listening position. I want to hang vertical and horizontal clouds and decoration so it won't be a problem.

I use 2x6 construction for most things. Rigidity and strength. As well as more msm. There is only 1 area that is 3 leaf unfortunately and it's between 2 existing iOS rooms. Cost prohibitive at this point to change, maybe in the future. Otherwise it's all 2 leaf.there is only 1 existing wall that will have 1/2" drywall facing the new control room. All others will be double 5/8 on each size. I could change that at great time and cost if it is essential to have the additional mass and make a substantial difference.

I'm using French doors instead of patio doors because I like the looks of them better as well as ingress/egress. They are easier for my door company to add additional weather stripping and gaskets to help with the transfer. I believe the natural air lock that the center room creates will add additional isolation to the control room.

I would appreciate any framing changes examples, how can I test or what program can I put my wall dimensions into. The ratios as you even said look right according to Loudens D room. I can easily turn the console around and face the big long symmetrical wall, no problem. I turn around to see the artists now from the existing room.

I truly appreciate your time and response, even though I might not have liked some of it. I know you guys are taking your time to help us out. I'd appreciate more opinions and direction. I want to wrap up the framing.

[monstertraxstudio]

I will redraw the sketch with the console facing the other way and put the monitors behind on stands. I'd like to know about a ceiling in the Air chamber. Currently it is the same 14' ceiling as the rest of the building. I'm wondering if an angled ceiling, say 10' on one end and 12' on the other would be a good idea, it looks like with all the different sized walls it would make a great iso room as well. Let me know. The HVAC guy would like to put flex above it to get to other places.

[RJHollins]

Wow. Lots of info and lots of ripping at the same time. ...

....., I'd like to also know the credentials of those who are responding to me in the manner in which you have. I have not heard Johns thoughts yet. I'm not discounting what you say, but theres forums are full of people who think they know all the answers. Don't get me wrong I see some of what your saying but I have been all over the world with my son who is a professional drummer and even Abbey Roads has rooms that don't have that so called symetry. I'm confused, but anyway. I'll get back to addressing your statements so everyone sees the answers as well.


.... I truly appreciate your time and response, even though I might not have liked some of it. I know you guys are taking your time to help us out. I'd appreciate more opinions and direction. I want to wrap up the framing.

Hi monstertraxstudio,

Since I was one of the 'responders' I not certain my credentials will have meaning to you or your project ... but I can say ...

I came to this site, quite by chance of coincidence. I've been a professional recording engineer/ producer over the past 30 years. I have had the pleasure of working in some of the finest facilities in the US. I've also worked in what was 'termed' a studio, too. [just so I'm
not thought of as some snob that appeared on the scene with a 'golden ear' up my ...
Hey ... I also am a drummer.

This forum [quite different from some 'others'] has been provided as an educational, hands on
board by John Sayers. The on-line Moderators are here because of the HUGE sums of money
and special gifts [that we can't mention publicly] they receive from those that seek answers.

Right

I came to this site, with 2 college degrees, the last being in Audio Engineering [Music as a
Major, Recording Major, minor in Electrical Engineering & Acoustics] ... I mentioned this ONLY
to point out that [during my career] I was involved [various degrees] of some 5 studio builds.
Most ALL of them were based in, what is now termed, 'Old School' design [Hidley].

When I submitted my Control Room design here ... it got RIP [but in a congenial way i suppose].

I won't go to detail ... My 'Build Diary' is here:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =1&t=14794

Within that thread are the countless questions, issues, problems, goals that were raised AND
addressed.

Most EVERY design concept presented to me seemed MUCH against everything I thought I had learned .... 'thought'. Back in THOSE daze ... we did NOT have access to all the scientific data that the MODS here provided links too, let alone, explaining it over and over till I better understood.

I also had access to a contractor of over 20 years. My younger brother. There is not MUCH that
he hasn't built ... except for one thing.

a Recording Studio Control Room !

Most EVERYTHING they he and crew would NORMALLY do, I had to STOP them ... re-consult
here so that I could properly explain it to my contractor. Yes, there were many a time they
thought I was nuts, crazy, a PITA ... or just TOO MUCH of a perfectionist .... what ever ...
they DID IT to the instructions I had.

I've now been in my new room for a couple months ... studying, testing, listening ... yeah, and
trying to finish off the rest of the basement

The result ... without ANY fine tuning, or modification to the very first drawings ...

Is 'STUNNING' to big of a word to use ???

ISOLATION ... I actually have MORE than I need ... but I'm not complaining

Room sonics ... even though I KNOW I have some more treatment that will probably be
suggested ... this 'Control Room' rivals some of the Majors.

Oh ... and contractor brother. What an education he received along the way !

He comes over to visit to 1. hide out in the sheer SILENCE [while the kids are tearing up
upstairs] ... and then I put on some tracks to listen.

And like everyone else that has come in ... they go off into another place ... with usually
a stunned GRIN on there face ... yea ... and maybe a bit glassy eyed

From my point ... I've LIVED in Controls rooms most my working time. I only have a set of
my first ever self-powered monitors ... Yamaha HS80Ms.

Some of the tracks I play are a 'religious' experience ... while others, that I grew up listening
to, sound ATROCIOUS. I have HDTracks from a wide spans of musical instrumentation
and style ... the crappy ones sound like it ... any the great ones ... just musical magic.

The 'Staff' here has been unshaken in effort to help me.

IMPORTANTLY .... the savings along with the results is why I try to DONATE to this site.
No one TELLS you to, but as a Student of Audio/Music ... I send my 'token' in most humble
thanks.

And that is why I replied to your thread ... I'm learning from other peoples' build, not only
just to read what what UNIQUE problems and solutions come up ...
hey ... I might be building another facility .... who knows the future.

Anyway ... sorry to bore you. I was SO impatient to get my room up and running ... AND,
I wanted to educate myself. Otherwise ... pay to hire, with on site overview.

I had NO expectation nor goal to build a 'World Class Studio' in my low ceilinged basement. But
I did want to 'test' this new design philosophy [for me] ... and yes, I will ask for advise HERE
on tweaking this room to do what I set out to do. Mastering.

Best regards! and hope you kept posting [with PICTURES]

Sincerely.

[monstertraxstudio]

Great post and thanks for bringing some perspective to my plight. I am wanting to get back up and running. It seems when people hear you are under construction that it's your whole place and not just additions ,so business has dropped off since I've been constructing. I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone here and as I have found out, this free advice and design help here has an outside cost of $30-75k in this area, so I take the responses seriously and want as much professional help as they will offer. I have spent a great deal of money in framing thus far and would like to leave it if at all possible. I agreed with the symmetry thing and will redraw the design today and repost.

Hopefully you guys can help me get back to work soon.

Happy Easter all.