UAN - new Control Room build

[RJHollins]

Seems like you must be doing something correct, if you located a tool that already existed, the drywall tradesmen use to do...well, the very same thing.

Yeah ... I wasn't sure. One of the initiations for the new production assistant was to
send him out for a 'cable stretcher'.

anyway ...

Today took delivery of the 4'x8'x 1/2" Homosote. It is more 'solid' than I first thought, although
I bet it can get banged up without much effort.

With this in mind ... the plan is to install it to both sides AND the top of the jamb where
it all contacts the framing.

STILL have a question Should the homosote end flush to the width of the jamb, or do
I need to recess it and THEN caulk out the difference

Thanks!!!

Ahhh ... that time of the month ... hit the DONATE button

Sincerely

[gullfo]

you're using the Homasote to fill in the gap between the jamb and frame? i think you need to put caulk on either side (butter it) and since you're going to trim around it, flush should be OK.

[RJHollins]

you're using the Homasote to fill in the gap between the jamb and frame? i think you need to put caulk on either side (butter it) and since you're going to trim around it, flush should be OK.

Hi Glenn !

Always good to hear from you !

Homasote ... that's what I THOUGHT we were supposed to use ?!?!?

IF that is correct ?!? Then we'll also do the 'butter' technique.

If NOT ... the only other material that I've been able to locate would be using some
of those 1/2" 2'x4' drop ceiling panels. The kind that have a white 'plastic-y' face that
is glued to some 1/2" rigid [yellow] fiberglass. I would try to peel the 'facing' off and use
the fiberglass. I can't believe how difficult it is to find rigid fiberglass supplies. Places around
here are not stocking it.

What would you have me do ... to do this correctly [of course].

Always .... Big THANKS!!!

[xSpace]

Push insulation into the jamb area in question. You are trying to keep the wall assembly consistent through out the entire build.


Thing is...most doors in a high isolated environment will not have gaps between the jamb and framing since the WEIGHT of the door will modulate the framing and negate any space.

[RJHollins]

OK ... I hope that I'm not getting confused here

First ... Glenn, you put a ? mark at the mention of using Homasote to surround
the outer jamb. I thought I had read from one of the other builds that this was the
way to go. If this is a mistake, or YOU are not wanting me to use this ... I need to
know your concern and recommendation. As you [and others] have informed, the door is
a critical [weak link] candidate. I need to be certain that what we build is within required
specs!

Here's a basic pic of the door.

Super Door - with Homasote-1.JPG

From want I understand ...
1. we are to surround the outer top, & 2 sides of the jamb.
the jamb will span the depth of the inner & outer frame walls.
Caulk will be sandwiched between the jamb & homasote.

2. The inner & outer framed walls STILL need to have 2x4's installed to mount the jamb. No
doubt, the 'hinge side' will have several studs [on both walls] to maximize the jamb stability.

2b. Since we're 'buttering' ... the connection of the homasote to the 2 walls will also be a
caulk sandwich.

What I have now:

Looking down at the floor ... we have the 2 floor plates ... as yet uncut
IGNORE the work light on the left side of the opening

PL_PID_1000000303.jpg

From INSIDE the control room, here is a view of the 2 walls on LEFT side.

PL_PID_1000000304.jpg

Next is view of the RIGHT side walls.

PL_PID_1000000305.jpg

As seen ... we have left this area wide open for framing.

Once the EXACT door location is determined ... I need to install anchor bolts into both plates,
on either side of the door jamb.

OK ...

Now 'xSpace' ...

You are bringing to my attention a concern ... and I AM concerned, 'cause I don't quite
understand your instruction.

You said, "not have gaps between the jamb and framing". And 'stuff insulation into the jamb'.

Maybe you're just reminding me ... OR ... you are correcting me ... not sure. [sorry]

The 'plan' was for this homasote to actually be a 'sandwich' between the jamb and the wall
framing. With the weight of this door ... I figure that a minimum of 3", COARSE screws
would be used THROUGH the jamb ... into the wall studs [both].

I also thought that [at least] SOME of the hinge screws would ALSO penetrate deep into
the studs.

A concern would be NOT splitting the jamb NOR the studs !!!

The insulation part ... again ... I'm not understanding ... please help on this.

hmmm .... hope I'm not messing up ... wait till you hear my thoughts on mounting this lead
sheet, and 1" plywood to this door

It involves 'countersunk' bolts ... about 6 of them ... 1/4"

Drilling HOLES through the solid core door, thru the lead sheet, AND the plywood.
then using some type of round 'plugs' to cover the countersunk nuts.

"countersunk nuts" ... wait ... I think I recorded that band.

Now you KNOW I really need help.

T H A N K Y O U ...............

[JimDaddyO]

Quick question.....can spray foam insulation be used between the door framing and wall framing, or must it be glass/mineral wool type?

[gullfo]

i questioned the Homasote because as Brien points out due to the mass of the door, it could end up unstable because the Homasote will not be as sturdy as desired. so... i would go with putting the jamb right to the frame - minimally shimming as needed to finalize the square and then any small gaps should be sealed - caulk works and can be pumped in, this way it remains flexible with repeated door operations. so make sure the door rough frame is as square and close to the jamb tolerance as possible.

[xSpace]

Ditto to what Glenn said...it is all about the weight and if you add air in this respect, the distance now depends on the ability of the screw/nail to support what is often a massive weight.The homosote would fill a void, but will reduce the ability of the fastener to support the frame/door.

[RJHollins]

NOTE ... the following was posted BEFORE xSpaces message above !!!!

i questioned the Homasote because as Brien points out due to the mass of the door, it could end up unstable because the Homasote will not be as sturdy as desired.

Wow ... this is surprising to hear !

I was referencing from both Rods' 2nd edition, page 106, AND from one of the builds here on
the forum.

From Rod ... he had 'compressed rockwool' between the jamb and the framing.
I [also] thought I read that using rigid fiberglass could be used.

Now ... I'm really just asking questions about this !!!

Just to say ... this homasote stuff [at least the piece I have], is very rigid. AND ... this
4x8 - 1/2" sheet has plenty of weight to it. Trying to squeeze on this board ... it does NOT
give. Tapping on the board ... it is quite dead 'sounding'. Obviously, it quite a surprise that
its' given the thumbs DOWN !

OK ... so let me get the correct concept/materials for this. Forget the caulk [for the moment].

If not rockwool, and NOT homasote ... WHAT material should I get to help break the
connection between my double walls and this door jamb.

Sorry for my [apparent] goof on this ... hoping for a quick reply to know what to buy !

Thank-you Gentlemen

[RJHollins]

Ditto to what Glenn said...it is all about the weight and if you add air in this respect, the distance now depends on the ability of the screw/nail to support what is often a massive weight.The homosote would fill a void, but will reduce the ability of the fastener to support the frame/door.

This I can understand.

What is NOW confusing ... wouldn't ANYTHING [just about] put between the heavy jamb
and the framing be an issue ??? OK ... I admit ... I've not worked with rockwool. I did see
a piece at the lumber yard EARLY in my research. It was not very solid [so to speak]. It
seemed like it could easily break or crumble.

If I used compressed fiberglass ... to compress it to the level that would prevent the jamb
from 'rocking in place', would seem iff-y at best.

The homasote 'seem' [by far] a much better product to use. [MY ignorance].

So what do we use ?

I'm not only trying to build this room ... I'm also trying to learn as I go here.

Bottom line is ... this jamb is the ONLY bridge [hard connection] between my 2 stud walls.

If there is ONE thing I've learned from you Guys ... this be a big No-NO
According to Rod ... rockwool. Is this the only stuff to use?

Big Thanks ! PLEASE take my message here in the correct light. It is quite frustrating for
me not to understand all this stuff yet.

Sincerely

[gullfo]

On the jamb bridge question, do not bridge the two walls. Put the door on one wall or the other. Then extend the other with a jamb to around 1/4" away from the other. Still no hard contact. Put in some rigid insulation and backer rod and caulk. You can trim over it with cloth or paint or stain etc to finish it. This way the jamb is almost continous but in reality it is not and the air gap is sealed to preserve the spring air space between the walls.

[xSpace]

I think we have to define "jamb material". When these heavy doors are being designed and the rough openings are being prepped for them, this is done in tandem.

For the amount of weight we are talking about, it may require you to use double studs at the rough opening for the door.

Insulation is not the issue as you think it is or keep getting confused on. This is difficult to teach or prepare someone for who has lack of talent in this area, construction in general:)

The rough frame has to be able to support a door of substantial weight, the jamb has to be designed to do the same thing. So if you can do this, and you have a open void (often the void will be at the top of the door and the lock side) you fill it...simple right?


The hinge side will be hard against the rough jamb...

[RJHollins]

Hi Glenn ... Hi Brian.

Just back from a gig.

I wanted to post what I had been referencing too this entire time. I had also presented
this in my SketchUP file.

This is an excerpt from Rod's, 1st edition, book. My 2nd edition, hard copy, uses the same
basic design:

HRS - BILTP - SuperDoor Assembly.JPG

I hope it is now clear WHY I am shocked/confused with the proposed redesign of the Super
Door.

To my understanding, it appears the design change treats the door [similar] to the
window construction in Rod's book. But, as pointed out, we are dealing with a massive [heavy]
door instead.

I would like more time to really ponder this change. I would also appreciate ANY performance
comparisons [TL loss, etc] that may be available of the 2 designs.

Let me just say ... I see merit AND concerns with BOTH designs.

To Brian's' point ... this is correct, I am NOT a vetern carpenter or builder. I am also not
fluent with the terms used in the construction trade ... but I insist that I will learn/ understand
so that [at a minimum] I can clearly describe/detail to whom may be actually doing the
construction. I also need to be able to field questions from those working with me.

In all seriousness ... I have stopped this build until I am certain how I will proceed with this
critical door matter. and if Mr Gervais is in the house ... I would invite his clarification of
what design he has set forth in BOTH editions of his books.

Every person inquiring on a design has to have a door in there ... it would be quite an
education to sit in on the discussion with 'The GURUS'.

Thank you for you time & patients.
Sincerely.

[xSpace]

In the static world I live in, a typical door will come in with trim and you attache the trim to the rough framing.

I still think that your misunderstanding of at least a few things. The door that we see, your top side view LOOKS like the trim is holding the framing in place....AND THAT is a typical door installation.


But this ain't no typical door...and that overhead print leaves much to be desired first and takes us right back to how to best secure a frame, second.

The frame has to be fastened, for the door frame, in such a way as to secure the rough framing...you can bridge it like mentioned but the hinge side...hell Talk to MAX and let's see what he has to say. He can clarify more what Rod is doing...since he has completed that project.

[RJHollins]

The door that we see, your top side view LOOKS like the trim is holding the framing in place....AND THAT is a typical door installation.

Hi Brian,

The diagram of the 'top side' view of the door ... IS the exact print from Rods' 1st edition
book ... 'Build like a Pro'. Although I may be violation copyright protocol ... what I have
posted [above] is HIS design for the Super Door. When I purchased his 2nd edition ... it
was the same diagram !!! I posted this, SPECIFICALLY' to illustrate what is considered to
be the bible on this stuff.

MORE importantly, I am NOT trying/pretending to be an expert on this. If I DID ... then I
would be denying MYSELF the potential to learn from the experts here. It's called playing
the naive student. Any tidbits of knowledge/insights that you guys share is ALL my gain.
That doesn't mean I'll understand right away, NOR will I except ANYONES point as The
Almighty. What I do is remove MY judgment/bias and opinions and try to absorb what
someone is trying to teach me. I believe that mindset put me 'under the wings' of some of
the top producers ... because they saw that I make the sincere effort and determination to
learn, implement AND innovate. My passion and desire to learn & understand.

Alright .... enough

Had the important conversation with my contractor, relaying the design concept that Glenn &
Brian have presented.

First & foremost ... my door MUST be attached to open INTO the room. To MAX the height
of the door, it must be then attached to the INNER frame. This means the possible 300lb
door would be secured to ONLY the inner room. OK
When talking with the engineer/designer at PAC international, isolation sway brackets were
installed to meet this potential criteria. That being, EACH of the 4 interior walls have a pair
of isolation sway brackets [Heavy Duty] in place. For the door area, I also have 4 more
brackets on site. It was suggested that 2 or 3 be installed about the hinge side, with at
least 1 installed on the 'latch' side.
Now ... I did some, rather, serious yanking & pulling on the currently exposed inner framing.
Confidence is HIGH as to the structure integrity and stability.
According to the PAC designer/inventor [whose name just escapes me] ... explained that
the TRUE stress will exist on the hinge side ... as a TWISTing force.
Within the 'endpoint' where the frame & the jamb connect ... we will add the concrete
anchor bolts [as used in the rest of the floor plates] to secure the floor plate.

When it comes to the wall studs on the hinge side ... we will use as many as needed ...
right now, I don't know what that will be. [suggestions if possible].

Key point ... the hinge side will happen to be a short wall [before it corners off to the
kick-off wall around the sump pump area.

My intent, is to leave enough area behind the door swinging left into the room, that having
a 4" thick absorber panel ... MOUNTED 4" off the door surface [exactly like the wall panels
in the room] would allow the door to open slightly over 90* [hopefully more]. My restriction
is on the latch side where I have a support beam under the buildings' Main Load Bearing Beam.
It's in my sketchup file

OK .... now if what I've described makes sense and is conceptually correct ... I need to hear.

The 'split frame' concept proposed by Glenn makes absolute sense to maintain isolation.
The 'on site' consensus is that the structure we've built can support this.

Diagrams and pictures are always welcomed !!!!

And I do have a concern about the hinge side jamb being an exception to the 'separation'
rule. I believe Brian, you stated this ... ?!?!? I don't recall ... I need to understand why
this was proposed.

Gentlemen ... true to form ... nothing that is important can be too easy .... and I sincerely
thank-you for your continued patients AND guidance you have shared with me throughout
this process. Please excuse my sometimes attitude during this ... I have been without a
work room for more than 6 months ... and my heart is aching Please bear with me.
Thank-you!