Johns Standard Control Room

[JohnH]

"if you can post a simple SketchUp file with a detailed floor plan accurate to < 1/2" with all the info - doors, windows, beams, electric, plumbing, etc etc. then it's possible some of the design elves around here may be inclined to chip in"

That would be great!
Here's my best attempt yet at a to scale, properly oriented, accurate to 0.5 inch sketchup.

johnh_mix_track_room.skp

(edit)
Windows
All the existing windows will be raised up and replaced.
I plan on lots of windows on the south wall starting at the existing window to the southwest corner.
Since the house is attached to the south wall just next to that window , there can never be any exterior windows from there to the south east corner. (The upstairs bedroom is on the other side)

Beam:
I drew the ceiling beam in and dimensioned it.
That beam in the ceiling has a tired scarf joint and will need support: a good place for a wall? columns or another beam under it.
Doesn't matter, we'll fix it one way or another.

Ceiling
The ceiling height varies depending on where you measure it.
Anywhere from 9'-1.5" along the south wall to as low as 8'- 7.5" in the center.
I can get a larger studio along the south wall, (but I look shorter )

Electric:
There is no electricity up here. The old electric is dead.
The mercury vapor lamp and ceiling fan are remnants from the glass blower. All that stuff will be removed.
I installed a new 200 amp service to the building last year, so I can run power anywhere needed.

Plumbing
No plumbing either, though I indicated the rough location of a future bathroom above where plumbing is easily available.

Room Location: (edit)
I keep going round and round on this subject. If we put the room against the north wall I have to deal with insulating an exterior wall for both thermally and acoustically. The north wall is closest to the road noise. I thought that building a free standing room away from that wall might be better. If I make it smaller, I can have a hallway along the north wall. This would help with sound and I could deal with the shell of the building later but the room would be smaller, 1500 cubic feet rather than 1900 cu ft. But bigger would be nice, I have lots of toys to put in here and could use more floor space. But I'd rather not have to finish any major projects on the entire buiding first. (like insulating the entire place) I'd would like to complete this music room first. (A place to escape from the chaos.) (edit) Latest decision IS to put the room against the north (roadside) wall.

Insulation (new)
I planned on building this (stand alone (for now)) room so I could heat it with electric heat.
Later, I will use blown in insulation in the existing exterior wall cavities and foil faced foam. (Heating costs are the big issue up here)

Other Progress:
Bought the RS digital sound level meter and will do some measurements soon hopefully.

Sketchup:
Sketchup chokes my office computer if I try to use any of the cool dynamic components so for now, its basic boxes.

That's it from northen vermont, where even the cows grow beards in the winter to keep warm.

[gullfo]

room location - this is a tricky one and it really boils down to where you are likely to do acoustic recording or very low level critical listening which could be affected by the noise. in my mind, since most CR have a big bass trap on the back, put that facing the traffic. this put the booth away from that (a bit) and a heavy as possible partition wall along the edge which will become the live room someday should give you the room within a room. beefing up and decoupling the exterior and existing walls will be needed for effectiveness and determining how much work is needed on the floor to properly decouple - again it may be the floor gets mass treatment and then later if needed is internally "floated" to decouple from the walls and underlying floor, or maybe just the booth will need it.

[JohnH]

Here's a sketchup with more details of the building and an attempt at putting the music room against the northwall.

johnh_mix_track_room_barn.skp

[gullfo]

here's one idea. room-within-a-room for both with doors and windows in anticipation of future expansion. or simply frame out the spaces for the windows into the live room but fill in.

[JohnH]

I just got back from an 8 day vacation and found your handywork. Thanks for your time Glenn! Let me take some time and look it over.
Much appreciated.

[JohnH]

After many hours of sketchuping and consulting with anyone I could drag in off the street I have an updated sketchup file of the entire building (which I can't upload because it's too big) so here's a .png file
South is on top of the page (in Vermont we worship the rarely seen sun)

johnh_mix_track_room_barnJan31.png

Live Room
The "live room" will actually be a "multi purpose room" (Recording music, mini conferences, workshops, teaching, presentation, live music) and we want the southern exposure in this room.

Control Room
So it looks like I need the control/tracking room back against the north wall. Because my wife is getting the southwest corner of the building for her office and we need shared access to the multipurpose room. (more sound proof walls needed)

Orientation
I think I might prefer to rotate the mix postion 90 degrees and face either west or east for the following reasons:

It would leave more room behind me for a guitarist along with all my other musical toys (synthesizers, theremin, hand drums, small amps, guitars and mike stands rather than a couch.

Since I use a DAW (Cubase and Ableton), I do NOT have a large traditional console but rather several small control surfaces, 2 monitors, some rack effects and an 88 key midi controller (lots of toys and gizmos) So I don't need the width required for a large console. Any thoughts?

Doors
I don't really need access to the attic stairs from the control room. We have access to them from the southeast room. So we can get rid of that door completely.

Which means I could have only ONE sliding glass door on my side for entry and communication. Is this logical?

Plain Jane Rectangular Room vs angles and Built In Treatment
As much as I would LOVE a "world class looking" studio, I'm not sure if it makes sence to build it. It will take much longer, is more difficult and would probably be ripped out by the next owner when I go and sell this place in 10 years or less....if I even can)

So? What do you think about making the control room rectangular and using John Sayers modular "components" soffit and slats plans? Can I make an almost great sounding room in less time with add on treatments? Or is there no comparison?

Anyone smell my desperation to have this studio instantly appear out of thin air?
(could someone air lift in one of those "studio's in a container")

Construction is starting immediately. So any help would be appreciated. We'll be ripping down the ductwork, old fixtures, building the stairs first. I'll send pictures as we progress.

PS. I've got my sound level meter and batteries, but it 20 below zero here and I don't want to freeze the meter.

[JohnH]

Glenn, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with me.
Based on our talk, we're looking at building a double wall rectangular control room with flat ceiling with one sliding glass door to my left (into the multi-purpose room) and using heavy curtain over it when mixing. Then adding treatments as necessary.

Construction has begun on the building. The stairs are built, my wife's future office is framed in, which creates the hallway and access to the multi purpose room as depicted in the previously posted picture.

To eliminate a three leaf structure, we have removed the interior surface of the north exterior wall (where the music room will go). Two layers of 5/8" sheetrock will be installed, with caulk and furring strips, inside of the wall cavities to create add mass.

There are problems. Both the adjacent existing partition and the existing ceiling will create three leaf construction which we know is bad for low frequency isolation. (diesel dump trucks and jake brakes)

We need the existing ceiling to hold up the blown in cellulose and keep out the mice.
Other than rip down a 110 year old ceiling filled with 110 years of road dust and mouse droppings and such, are there any other approaches to beefing up and existing ceiling? PLEASE

The books I have do not show any detail other than building an insulated wall spaced from the existing wall (creating 3 leaf).

Same situation with the existing wall. 1 inch tongue and groove boards on 2x4's with no insulation in between. Also there is no plate under this wall, the wall cavities are open to the garage. The attic stairs are on the other side of this wall.

Should I leave it as is and build my new wall next to it?
Should I seal up the cavities and blow in insulation?
Cover one side with sheetrock?
Greenglue?
Any way to predict and tune the resonant frequency of these structures?
Has anyone out there had to go with 3 leaf and made it work?


More picture coming soon, and yes I know I am late with the sound survey numbers.
Soon.

[JohnH]

Would one of these concepts work better at keeping low frequency out?
I realize that figure A is triple leaf.
I also have no idea of the natural frequency of the existing 30x50 foot wood ceiling structure.

CeilingFigure_A.jpg

CeilingFigure_B.jpg

[gullfo]

if the upper attic floor could have enough air gaps in it, then it might not become a triple leaf and thus make option C (not shown) viable - put 2x drywall on the upper ceiling and 2x drywall on the lower ceiling.

[JohnH]

What would be consider enough gaps, maybe in percentage?

[gullfo]

probably 20% or more. somewhat hard to say but maybe it's possible to remove a board every 5 or 6? (maybe stagger the openings?)

[JohnH]

The entire construction team thanks you. And the existing 100+ years of dessicated mouse excrement quite possibly will add to the R-value though probably no acoustic benefits.

[xSpace]

Would one of these concepts work better at keeping low frequency out?
I realize that figure A is triple leaf.
I also have no idea of the natural frequency of the existing 30x50 foot wood ceiling structure.

CeilingFigure_A.jpg

CeilingFigure_B.jpg

Figure A is not a triple leaf. It is a single frame/two sided assembly...a coupled assembly with another hard boundary below it. If you turned it 90 degrees in any direction it is the same as an interior wall in your home.

You have another option of removing the existing ceiling, which while being the better option in a typical sense, your elevated status may not support it.

Adding mass directly to your existing boundaries is most likely your best out in this case,.



"According to the charts, 2"x12" on 16" centers that span only 14 feet should be able to easily support 60 pounds/square foot (dead load) and 20 psf live load."


I think you have this backwards. But, doesn't matter at this stage. Deadload is the weight of the materials...all of them. When you add more, then this number changes. This is a static load.

The live load, often the higher of the two but, it's your house, is not a static load. It concerns itself with things that are not there all the time, subject to move...furniture, people...and environmental impact.


In an elevated, wood structure...it doesn't make since to develop a room in a room , if in fact this is what you are trying to achieve.

[JohnH]

Brien,
If I don't need a double wall, that would save time and money. The main objective is to keep the really loud noises from the outside world from coming in. I really need to take those sound level readings. Any suggestions or guidelines?

[xSpace]

I didn't say you would not benefit from a double framed assembly, I suggested that in an elevated wood framed environment it is all flanking path so the benefits are hard to figure.