hello in need of some help

acjr3 · Post by **acjr3** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:33 am

Hello I am Junior Cervantes and I posted in the designs forum to get an idea of how to design. I have chosen a design and know just need some answers on wall construction. I have been reading here for months now and I have learned alot. Just cant quite understand some things. I have a contractor working for me thats going to do everything. We will be moving in this week to our new house and I will begin construction wednsday in the garage.

1. I am goin to build double walls using around 3 sheets of different thicknesses of sheetrock on each wall and need to know how to put 3 sheets up.
Whats to best way to put up the sheets of sheetrock against each other (meaning what to use)?

2. I am going to use both wooden and steel studs for the 2 walls.
Which side should the steel studs face? I am going to be recording alot of acoustic stuff.

3.Also since Im going to use steel studs on one side there is no need to use RC on the wooden studs is there?

4. I know Im not supposed to use nails out the sheetrock in the wooden studs.
What do I use, screws?

5. I was going to float the floors buit I am afraid to. The guy says he knows how to do it but I dont trust him and dont have the budget to hire someone else for that.
Will I really lose alot of soundproofing from inside to outside by not floating the floors? The neighbors on that side are like 20 to 30 feet away. Can I float the floors later or it has to be done before the walls are put up?
Or can I just build a drum riser being thats its the loudest instrument I will record.

6. I am goin to slant the ceiling in the control room a little.
How much should it be slanted?

7. I want to put wood floors down but have alot of stuff to buy first.
Can I get away with just painting the concrete for the time being with some lacquer paint then later puting the wood floors down?
Would there be a big difference in sound?

What I really need is the most isolation between control room and live room as I can get without losing to much space, Also I need to be able to run late night sessions(seem to be the only time musicians get good) without getting the cops called on be. I rarely will record bands together the loudest intrument I record will be drums. Also I want acousticly to have that nice, clear, open sound for percussion instruments and guitars and such.

Thaks for all of your time and patience and look foward to receiving help from all of you that can help me

Junior Cervantes

pic of plan

dymaxian · Post by **dymaxian** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:24 pm

Greetings! Lots of questions, but nothing too bad, I don't think...

Here goes...

1. I am goin to build double walls using around 3 sheets of different thicknesses of sheetrock on each wall and need to know how to put 3 sheets up.
Whats to best way to put up the sheets of sheetrock against each other (meaning what to use)?

IMHO if you're putting up 3 sheets of drywall, I'd go 1/2"+5/8"+1/2" on one side, and the opposite on the other. BTW rent a drywall jack for the weekend- they're worth it. You can pretty much do the whole thing solo.

2. I am going to use both wooden and steel studs for the 2 walls.
Which side should the steel studs face? I am going to be recording alot of acoustic stuff.

If you're planning on floating the floors in one of the rooms, then you don't need to use steel studs. We recommend steel studs instead of wood studs with RC because the steel flexes enough to keep sound vibrations from transmitting- but since you're using double wall construction there's no need for any more structural isolation- you've got plenty.

I'd stick with just wood. Just make sure they have separate sill and header plates, and a gap of at least 1" between them.

3.Also since Im going to use steel studs on one side there is no need to use RC on the wooden studs is there?

No need for RC on either side.

4. I know Im not supposed to use nails out the sheetrock in the wooden studs.
What do I use, screws?

Yep. Get short screws for the first layer, and longer screws for the second and third. Make sure you stagger all the seams, and caulk the hell out of it if you don't tape the joints.

5. I was going to float the floors buit I am afraid to. The guy says he knows how to do it but I dont trust him and dont have the budget to hire someone else for that.
Will I really lose alot of soundproofing from inside to outside by not floating the floors? The neighbors on that side are like 20 to 30 feet away. Can I float the floors later or it has to be done before the walls are put up?
Or can I just build a drum riser being thats its the loudest instrument I will record.

Well, IMHO if you don't trust him, why is he working on your place at all?

I'd float the live room. This'll give you great isolation from both the control room and the outside world, which seems to be your goal. Build the inside walls for the live room off this floated floor, and build the inside ceiling off those walls, and you'll have a totally isolated room. Add 3 layers of drywall and you should be able to get all kinds of loud in there.

Unfortunately, this isn't the kind of thing you can add later on. For a structural isolation of the walls, they'd need to be floated with the floor. I'd have your guy do it, and just make sure you keep an eye on him while he's doing the floor.

Another side note- make sure your ceiling joists are way oversized if you're putting up this much drywall. You don't want those coming down on you.

6. I am goin to slant the ceiling in the control room a little.
How much should it be slanted?

Even just a little would be better than nothing at all. If you have the headroom available, try to get a 6 or 10 degree slope.

7. I want to put wood floors down but have alot of stuff to buy first.
Can I get away with just painting the concrete for the time being with some lacquer paint then later puting the wood floors down?
Would there be a big difference in sound?

That'd be fine. Just seal and paint the concrete- or even just seal it- and it'll be super-reflective.

Hope this helps!

Kase
www.minemusic.net

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:09 pm

Kase, thanks for all the good help here - couldn't have said it better myself.

Junior, an easy way to figure slope on ceilings is this: 1 foot rise in 10 feet = about 5.7 degrees, which will take care of flutter but not reflections - for that, you would need at least 15 degrees - this takes a lot of ceiling height, so it's usually more practical to handle ceiling reflections by using absorbent "clouds", as I'm sure you've read before in different threads.

If you were building a room where the ceiling was already vaulted, typical roof pitches in the US run 4 in 12, which is an angle of 18.43 degrees - this would work well for a ceiling slope (up in back, low in front) to achieve RFZ in a control room.

I agree with Kase 100% on floating your tracking room for drums - unless you're insane, you'll RARELY run sound levels in the CR above 90 dB, other than an occasional "WOW" factor - I try to always mix at 85 dB, give or take a couple dB, since this is where the human ear is closest to linear.

On the other hand, live drums can reach 120 dB so would need extra isolation.

They're not as cheap as getting sheet neoprene as has been discussed here, but Auralex U-Boats are made of EPDM rubber (about 25 year life as opposed to maybe 10 years for neoprene) - using those for a floated floor, and following the help that's available from Auralex's site would be the simplest way to float your tracking room. IF your builder isn't experienced in sound construction, that would be the safest way to do it.

If you need span data for your ceiling joists, be sure to let us know and post a plan so we know enough details to help calculate it for you... Steve

acjr3 · Post by **acjr3** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:54 am

Wow thanx alot kase and Steve.

To clearify a bit the studio will be built in the garage of the house. The floor is concrete and is sloped towards to where the garage doors are at. I guess for drainage reasons. Also there is like a step up of about 4 inches towards the other side and gradually increases as the floor slopes.
the ceilings are around 8 feet on one side then go to about 8.7 towards the sloped side.
The guy that is helping me is an old friend of the family and I just dont trust him in the whole floating the floor part, everything else I trust him in. Also hes doin it for free so theres no arguing that. I told him ill pay him but he doesnt want anything. just food! (hehe)

Couple of questions..

1. "Just make sure they have separate sill and header plates, and a gap of at least 1" between them."
What does this mean in english?

I have no idea of construction work or its terminology.

2. Am I really going to lose alot of isolation by not floating floors? by how much dbs? hoe bout a drum riser?
If I have to and I will benefit alot from it Ill float the floor in the tracking room, but just want to make sure its worth it.

3. Small screws for first sheet of sheetrock screwed to stud then the other two with larger screws screwed to the studs also? Or are they screwed on differently?

4. "Make sure you stagger all the seams" what does stagger mean?

5. What are ceiling joists?

6. Any coments on the design? would love to hear all the constructive criticism I can.

I would show this to the guy but he doesnt undertand english very well(hispanic).

Well I think thats it. Thanks alot for your time and patience I appreciate it alot

Junior Cervantes

dymaxian · Post by **dymaxian** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:24 pm

You're welcome, Junior. That's what we're here for.

To clearify a bit the studio will be built in the garage of the house. The floor is concrete and is sloped towards to where the garage doors are at. I guess for drainage reasons. Also there is like a step up of about 4 inches towards the other side and gradually increases as the floor slopes.

Is the slope in this room very steep, or barely noticeable? It doesn't take much slope to get water to drain out, so I'm guessing it's not much. If this slope doesn't annoy you or make your equipment roll around the room while you're working, I wouldn't worry about it. And the step you mention is to the outside, right? That shouldn't make too much difference for our purposes here. Just gotta watch your step coming outside.

1. "Just make sure they have separate sill and header plates, and a gap of at least 1" between them."
What does this mean in english? I have no idea of construction work or its terminology.

Sorry if I confused you- many of the people on this board are builders or have some experience in it, and I work as an architect, so I didn't want to sound like I was talking down to you.

When you build a stud wall, you have the vertical studs every 16", and you'll have a board on the top and bottom to connect them all. The bottom is the sill plate, the top is the header or top plate.

Your builder should know this one.

2. Am I really going to lose alot of isolation by not floating floors? by how much dbs? hoe bout a drum riser?
If I have to and I will benefit alot from it Ill float the floor in the tracking room, but just want to make sure its worth it.

Well, a drum riser will make a difference too- it'll keep the direct vibrations from the drums from getting into the floor. But sound will still hit the un-floated parts, and get into the structure from there. If you're playing really loud, sound will still get into the house from there.

On the other hand, if your concern is keeping it quiet for the neighbors, and sound in your own house isn't so much of a problem, then the drum riser may be plenty. The neighbor's house doesn't have a structural connection to your studio

If you want lots of separation between tracking and control, then you'll want to float the whole floor.

3. Small screws for first sheet of sheetrock screwed to stud then the other two with larger screws screwed to the studs also? Or are they screwed on differently?

That's right. You'll have to make sure you don't try to screw into a screw-head on another layer, but otherwise it's that easy.

4. "Make sure you stagger all the seams" what does stagger mean?

Just make sure that the edges don't line up with each other. They'll have to cross in some spots, obviously, but if they line up you'll get sound leaking right thru your wall.

5. What are ceiling joists?

Those are the wood (or steel, if you have a steel stud house; most likely wood) 2x8 or 2x10 or whatever that form the ceiling. If there's a room above the garage they're also the floor joists. That's what holds up the drywall that you'll attach to the ceiling. You should make sure you know how big they are, and how strong they are, before you start hanging more stuff off of them.

The design looks like it'll be ok. You should take a look at a couple of John's designs for control rooms, just to give you some ideas on the interior design. The big, heavy walls are fine where you're plannign to put them, but you'll probably want lighter interior walls to make the acoustics work in there. If you need a drawing or picture of a floating floor to show your builder, he'll probably pick it up pretty quickly. Those are all over this board.

Good luck!

Kase
www.minemusic.net

acjr3 · Post by **acjr3** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:41 pm

Hello thaks alot Kase

The slope isnt that noticiable and wont bother me at all.

The step up goes all around the garage. To better understand me its in the design drawing where it says 4 inch step up and goes around and gets larger to where the garage doors are at because of the slope.

So the 2x4s that connect to the vertical ones have to be separate by at lease 1 inch right? This one I quite dont understand. Could you explain this a bit more please?

I really dont need much isolation within the house itself, just from the control room and tracking room and the outside world. If I float the floor in the tracking room, The two walls that I build will have to be built on the floated floor, right?

The whole staggering seams thing still kinda gots me confused.
Can you please help me here a bit more?

I was planning on using the 3 sheets of sheetrock on all the walls. This will present a problem when it comes to the acoustics?

OK now that should do it.

Thanks alot Kase

Junior Cervantes

dymaxian · Post by **dymaxian** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:32 pm

So the 2x4s that connect to the vertical ones have to be separate by at lease 1 inch right? This one I quite dont understand. Could you explain this a bit more please?

Heh, I think I confused you. All I was saying is that the 2 walls between the tracking room and control room should have at least 1" space between them.

I really dont need much isolation within the house itself, just from the control room and tracking room and the outside world. If I float the floor in the tracking room, The two walls that I build will have to be built on the floated floor, right?

Right. In fact, I'd recommend you build all 4 of the tracking room's walls off the floated floor, and the ceiling for the tracking room off of that. Then the whole room will be structurally separate from the garage, and you'll be able to be awfully loud in there without bugging your neighbors.

Especially with 3 layers of drywall.

Hrm, I just looked back over your plans again. It seems like you were planning to build double walls between the control and tracking rooms, and build a new wall between the tracking room and the existing garage-door wall. But it seems like you were going to use the existing walls for the remaining 2.

If you're planning on floating the floor, you should double-up the wall all the way around the tracking room. Float the floor, with an inch of space between the edge of the floating floor and the walls, and then build up all four walls. If you're going thru the trouble to float the floors, it'd be a waste of time to leave half the tracking room with just the existing walls.

The whole staggering seams thing still kinda gots me confused.
Can you please help me here a bit more?

If you won't be hanging the drywall on your own, just make sure to tell the builder to stagger the edges so they don't line up with each other. If you are, let me know and I'll try to diagram it for you.

I was planning on using the 3 sheets of sheetrock on all the walls. This will present a problem when it comes to the acoustics?

Its going to mean that most of the sound you make in the tracking room will stay in the tracking room. Which is good. But it also means you need to have a plan to treat the inside of this room once it's done.

Kase
www.minemusic.net

AndrewMc · Post by **AndrewMc** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 10:49 am

Just as a reference point regarding your decision to float / not float the room. I didn't float any rooms because this adds a whole bunch of cost / complexity to an already costly & complex project.

With 2 wall construction, 3 layers of 5/8 drywall - As a test set up drums on the concrete and played them as loud as humanly possible - couldn't hear anything outside (very slight noise if you stood directly next to the wall outside, nothing 10 feet away).

I plan to add a floated slab for the drums to sit on, this is simple to add and should improve the isolation even more, but it's already easily good enough.

acjr3 · Post by **acjr3** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:10 am

Hello everybody thanks for all of your help. I really appreciate it alot. Im hopefully going to begin construction next week so if anything arises Ill be sure to ask you all for help.

Junior Cervantes